Just an observation, don't want to steer the topic off-topic.

Short lead time? They ran out and put up 624.714 spec signs after the law was repealled and then never got around to pulling them down when they were [once again] barred from posting them? Do they have their county meetings once a year? Or maybe 'years' means short time to them?

This is what I plan to send to the Hutchinson Mall. It's not to far off from the letter that I sent to the county. I still need to get a complete list of tenant names before it is complete:

Dear Ms. Forcier,

Your immediate attention is required on this matter to insure the Hutchinson Mall becomes compliant with Minnesota State law. This letter is being sent to you regarding signs banning guns that are posted at the entrances to the Hutchinson Mall in Hutchinson, MN which houses (list the business within the building).

The signs in question (see picture attached) which say “Minnesota Statute Bans Guns on these Premises” (hereinafter referred to as “the signs”) are not in compliance with MN State Statute 624.714, Sub 17, (e ) which states:

(e) A landlord may not restrict the lawful carry or
possession of firearms by tenants or their guests.

The posting of these sign(s) places the Hutchinson Mall in non-compliance of Minnesota Statute 624.714, Sub 17, (e) by restricting Mall patrons from carrying firearms while in the Mall common areas and also restricts Tenants and their patrons from carrying firearms to and from their place of business. The sign measuring 17” X 22” is posted on the main front entrance of the Hutchinson Mall and four other entrances to the Hutchinson Mall building and is done in black text and graphics on a white background. The signs also do not have the correct verbiage printed on them which also makes them not compliant under MN Statute 624.714, Sub 17, (i) which states:

(i) the requester has prominently posted a conspicuous sign
at every entrance to the establishment containing the following
language: "(INDICATE IDENTITY OF OPERATOR) BANS GUNS
IN THESE PREMISES."

Because the Hutchinson Mall is a public shopping center and the shopping center itself is the Landlord of the Tenants operating business within signs of this nature cannot be posted at the entrances of the Hutchinson Mall or in the common areas of any of the Hutchinson Mall owned and/or operated buildings or properties. Only the Tenants of the shopping center have the right to post their private business, not the shopping mall itself.

The signs banning guns that are posted at the Hutchinson Mall must be taken down immediately. If there are other signs banning guns on other entrances not listed in this request you must remove these signs as well for the same reasons of law listed above. Because the sign is not in compliance with MN Statute 624.714 it is also not enforceable by local, county, or state law enforcement agencies and citizens who possess a Minnesota Permit to Carry a Pistol shall not be prosecuted for not acknowledging the sign.

I have had an in depth discussion with McLeod County Sheriff Wayne Vinkemeier and Hutchinson Police Chief Dan Hatten regarding the posting of these signs and Chief Hatten indicated he would send a Sergeant to discuss the improper sign posting with you personally. Sheriff Vinkemeir is also aware that the posting of signs banning guns on shopping mall entrances and common areas is not permissible under Minnesota State Law.

I would like to formally request all information and documentation (in writing) that you have including agenda(s) for meetings discussing the posting of the signs, meeting(s) minutes discussing the posting of the sign, and the names of the persons who were involved in the decision making process regarding the posting of the signs and any other documentation regarding the posting of the signs that you can provide me with. Please send all requested information to me by certified mail to the address below in the closing of this email.

I have been advised by my attorney, who is well versed in MN 624.714, on this issue and he has indicated that the Hutchinson Mall needs to comply with MN Statute 624.714 or they could be subject to suit and that I should also notify Minnesota Attorney General Mike Hatch and SAC Jeff Luther of the BCA of the improper sign psoting if we can’t resolve this problem in a timely manner. It has now been seven weeks since I made my initial request to Chief Dan Hatten of the Hutchinson Police Department to inform you that the signs need to be removed so your attention to this matter should be most definitely urgent. If you have any questions of me regarding this request please contact me at the numbers or email address below. I want to thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.

Sincerely,

Jerry & Tina Durbin
Durbin’s Defensive Handgun Training
(612) 703-1472 days
(320) 328-5240 evenings
durbin@LL.net

But who ever accused a bureaucrat of being honest and forthcoming?

WAY TO GO, Jerry!!!!

I find that way too many permit holders are not willing to go out of their way, or put out much effort to get signs removed.

For all the years of work people who have gone before us have done. We who came late to the party, should feel obligated to put out a little effort to improve the right to carry within Minnesota.

Jerry -

I am not a lawyer (oh, boy, ain't I), but I doubt that it's actually illegal for the mall to post such a sign -- it just has no legal meaning.

In any case, this paragraph...



...makes perfect sense when writing to goverment -- they have to obey the Minnesota Data Practices Act and the Open Meeting Law -- but a commercial entity doesn't have to give you anything. It's stronger not to ask for something they darn well know they needn't provide.

Other that that, great work!

Andrew,

It is neither legal nor illegal for the signs to be posted but it is not in complainace with the statute with the way they are currently posted.. Upon discussion with Attorney David Gross he feels that a lawsuit could be filed against Shopping Centers that put up such signs and won in court for non-compliance. That is why I carefully worded the request with no mention of legality.. This worked with the County and I feel it will work with just about any place you pressure hard enough. I have already spoken to the Police Chief and the Sheriff about these signs and they are in agreement with me based on the statute that the signs have to come down, no question about it. Whether or not they could actually put up different signs "legally" only a court could decide.

Case history with the Mall of America: Upon much pressure for activists such as myself and other letter writers and phone callers the signs at the Mall of America were taken down for the same reasons I am suggesting, non-compkiance with the statute!!

Point taken though!!!

The Sprawl of America isn't posted anymore? Guess I can go see a movie there now if I feel like it. Haven't been there in over a year because of their signs, and I just got my permit in July.

When did they take them down?

I heard that most came down (probably in the last 6 months). But, when I was there (only once this year) the entrance I went into still had them up.

The Mall of America was still posted last month, although not even close to being in compliance with state law. If you walk in the main entrance on the north side there is a sign on a holder, in the center of the floor, about 20 or so feet from the doors.

Thanks for the info. There are other places to see movies, eat and shop. For me it's serious: No Guns = No $.

I wonder what impact (if any) a letter campaign to every tenant in the mall would make... Stating that because of the Mall (their landlord) insisting on posting, THEY are losing business. Add to it the state law saying landlords can't prohibit..etc.

If even 10% of the tenants brought it up to them as an issue, just having to deal with it might change their mind?

Just a thought.

It's good thinking, but I don't think that the MOA will change it's policy. I would bet that quite a bit of it's money comes from visitors who don't care about our carry laws.

What we'd need is more reciprocity states to use to sway them. If we had half the states (or even just florida), you could use that as leverage. I suppose we do have Utah...hmmm

I was at the MOA last week and the entrance I used (first floor rotunda) was posted. They are in the middle of a project to remodel the entrances - the rotunda entrance had only one of the doors open. I bet the signs have been moved around/taken down at times to make way for construction.

I go to the MOA quite often. During the time after the old law was ruled unconstitutional they removed their signs, but once the new law went back into effect they replaced them. At the entrances to the malls they are posted, but not at the entrances to the big 4 (sears, macy's, etc.)

Are they posted at the mall-side exits from the big 4? I think they used to be.

yes they are still posted, that is the big 4 are NOT posted, but the entrances into the mall from them are.