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 MOA 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:19 pm 
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Location: Rochester, MN
Signs? I see no signs...

... I also admit that I close my eyes when I walk in. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:14 pm 
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Madcap_Magician wrote:
Signs? I see no signs...

... I also admit that I close my eyes when I walk in. :D

Eyes closed? That's how I shoot, so it's not so LOUD. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:04 am 
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Nickel pkg wrote:
Madcap_Magician wrote:
Signs? I see no signs...

... I also admit that I close my eyes when I walk in. :D

Eyes closed? That's how I shoot, so it's not so LOUD. :wink:


It's like fly fishing... the best way to do it is to close your eyes and pretend you're a little old lady trying to fight off a bee with a broomstick. :P

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 Post subject: Re: How to change MOA
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:54 pm 
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plblark wrote:
That said, I've heard anecdotes about Mayo removing signs because of influential / rich patrons asking if they had a gun problem in the area.


I decided to start poking the bear, sort of.

I posted to some folks who were asking about making a trip to MOA.

I informed them that there might be a gun problem at the MOA as that is the only reason I could think of for them posting those signs (and sent them picture of the sign) - since they have no real effect under MN law.


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 Post subject: Re: MOA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:58 am 
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I thought this one was pretty...
Image

In between the double doors, on the left wall.

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 Post subject: Re: MOA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:45 am 
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IncaKola wrote:
I thought this one was pretty...
[IMG]
In between the double doors, on the left wall.


Hah, it's not exactly "in accordance" of Minnesota State law. :lol: That's definitely not black Arial font, and those signs are not at all of the entrances.

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 Post subject: Re: MOA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:44 pm 
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gyrfalcon wrote:
IncaKola wrote:
I thought this one was pretty...
[IMG]
In between the double doors, on the left wall.


Hah, it's not exactly "in accordance" of Minnesota State law. :lol: That's definitely not black Arial font, and those signs are not at all of the entrances.


And.. while I may have had a firearm on my person while visiting there this weekend (I can't remember), the sign pictured above is more than wrong aesthetically.

It is also wrong in it's wording. While those of us familiar with the law know what they may be trying to communicate, to the uneducated visitor from another land, it reads as though the State of MN bans guns in places like the MOA.

That kind of signage could lead to many quick 911 calls by a sheeple type person that spots one of us (accidentally).

Am I wrong?


MM


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 Post subject: Re: MOA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:51 pm 
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Since I got my permit in April, I've never seen signs at the MOA myself. But then, I expect that if the signs are up, they are posted where they are supposed to be posted. I don't look at posters on my way in though, so if they want to blend them in like that and make them inconspicuous, that is their problem. If they catch me and ask me to leave, I will happily comply, and take my money with me out the door.


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 Post subject: Re: MOA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:18 pm 
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Onesimus wrote:
Since I got my permit in April, I've never seen signs at the MOA myself. But then, I expect that if the signs are up, they are posted where they are supposed to be posted. I don't look at posters on my way in though, so if they want to blend them in like that and make them inconspicuous, that is their problem. If they catch me and ask me to leave, I will happily comply, and take my money with me out the door.


The problem is that the MOA CANNOT restrict carry as they are a landlord.
624.714, Subsection 17(e) wrote:


(e) A landlord may not restrict the lawful carry or
possession of firearms by tenants or their guests.


They have the store exits posted on a stand up sign, and some of the other entrances are posted by the sign I put up earlier.

About the signage...
624.714, Subsection 17 wrote:

(i) the requester has prominently posted a conspicuous sign at every entrance to the establishment containing the following language: "(INDICATE IDENTITY OF OPERATOR) BANS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES."; or

(ii) the requester or the requester's agent personally informs the person that guns are prohibited in the premises and demands compliance.

(2) "Prominently" means readily visible and within four feet laterally of the entrance with the bottom of the sign at a height of four to six feet above the floor.

(3) "Conspicuous" means lettering in black arial typeface at least 1-1/2 inches in height against a bright contrasting background that is at least 187 square inches in area.

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 Post subject: Re: MOA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:54 pm 
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IncaKola wrote:
Onesimus wrote:
Since I got my permit in April, I've never seen signs at the MOA myself. But then, I expect that if the signs are up, they are posted where they are supposed to be posted. I don't look at posters on my way in though, so if they want to blend them in like that and make them inconspicuous, that is their problem. If they catch me and ask me to leave, I will happily comply, and take my money with me out the door.


The problem is that the MOA CANNOT restrict carry as they are a landlord.
624.714, Subsection 17(e) wrote:


(e) A landlord may not restrict the lawful carry or
possession of firearms by tenants or their guests.


They have the store exits posted on a stand up sign, and some of the other entrances are posted by the sign I put up earlier.


I would tend to agree that they cannot restrict carry within the confines of their rented store spaces, but I would think that in the mall proper, or the areas of the malls that are considered MOA property-such as hallways, restrooms and the like would fall under their business space, and therefore they would be allowed to post a ban for those areas.

This could explain why people report seeing posters at entrances to the mall from stores, and not at the outside store entrances.


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 Post subject: Re: MOA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:08 pm 
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If then ban you from the hallways, how can you access their tenants as a guest or shopper.

IT's not legal. They are interfering with their tenants' rights as well as the shoppers' rights.

posting their own offices in non-rented space: OK.

Posting the whole mall: Not OK.

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 Post subject: Re: MOA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:10 pm 
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624.714, Subsection 17(e) wrote:
(e) A landlord may not restrict the lawful carry or
possession of firearms by tenants or their guests.

twelve_eight wrote:
I would tend to agree that they cannot restrict carry within the confines of their rented store spaces, but I would think that in the mall proper, or the areas of the malls that are considered MOA property-such as hallways, restrooms and the like would fall under their business space, and therefore they would be allowed to post a ban for those areas.

This could explain why people report seeing posters at entrances to the mall from stores, and not at the outside store entrances.


Nope. Since we don't have Star-Trek-style transporter beams, landlord being allowed to ban in the public hallways would render 17(e) meaningless. The Minnesota rules of statutory interpretation require that judges cannot read the law so as to render any part of it meaningless.

see MN Stat. 645.16 and 645.17

Edited to add: Paul was faster, but I showed my work. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: MOA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:47 pm 
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IncaKola wrote:
Onesimus wrote:
The problem is that the MOA CANNOT restrict carry as they are a landlord.


Even if they are not a landlord, they have a city or state facility on their property known as "Police Substation"...that seems to tip the scales in favor of it being more public than private.

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 Post subject: Re: MOA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:20 pm 
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Besides, even if they could post, it still means practically nothing. The request of compliance is still not present, unless they're gonna post something at every door telling everyone that comes in "if you have a gun, please leave".

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Macx wrote:
Arrrgghhh! Legally posted or not, we all know that someone carrying there and spotted will be asked to leave.
Private property not public is not the issue. They have the illegal signs and they have just as much "power" as legal ones . . . they are a precursor to an individual or individuals in uniform and/or nametags making the perfectly valid and legal request for one to leave. Failure to do so has the perscribed consequences . . . and I can think of better ways to spend $25 at MOA. The four types of shrimp dinner at Cantina #1 and a beer come to mind right away.


Did I miss something?
If they can't Post because of 17d, they can't ask you to leave for same reason or is there some other part of the law on tresspass I missed?


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