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Courage Center - Stillwater
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Kat
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Post subject: Courage Center - Stillwater Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:58 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:15 am Posts: 31 Location: MN
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Used to be the official (legal) looking, square sign - black letters on white. Now it's about 6" off the ground, stretched out in only two rows, with a yellow background.
I practically missed it walking in the other day for son's therapy. Wasn't asked to leave because I carry CONCEALED.
_________________ Luke 22:36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."
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Pakrat
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:40 pm |
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Forum Moderator/<br>AV Geek |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:56 am Posts: 2422 Location: Hopkins, MN
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This is why we need to look at reforming the posting laws. Posting have to be between 4' and 6' (vertically).
_________________ Minnesota Permit to Carry Instructor; Utah Certified CFP Instructor
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kimberman
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:02 pm |
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Wise Elder |
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:48 pm Posts: 2782 Location: St. Paul
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Pakrat wrote: This is why we need to look at reforming the posting laws. Posting have to be between 4' and 6' (vertically).
Why would you want to change this? It requires the signs to be at eye level, not hidden in the shrubbry or on top of the doorway. Additionally, the sign has to be "conspicious" and "readily visible." The burden is on the prosecutor as to every one of these elements of the offense. Why would you want to lessen that burden?
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Cam
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:12 am |
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Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:37 am Posts: 51
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I have to agree with KimberMan. I am new to the carry issue and "gun politics" (even though I've been around firearms all my life).
I often think that concealed gun carriers are often looking for a fight when discression might serve better in the long run. It seems like a lot of battles have been won - not to say there aren't many important issues to address going forward. But as someone who has benefited from the work of those who initiated and fought early in the game I think we need to pick and choose our battles. It's important to consider some of the possible long term effects of our actions.
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phorvick
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:18 am |
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Forum Moderator |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:37 pm Posts: 1571 Location: Detroit Lakes, MN
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KimberMan wrote: Pakrat wrote: This is why we need to look at reforming the posting laws. Posting have to be between 4' and 6' (vertically). Why would you want to change this? It requires the signs to be at eye level, not hidden in the shrubbry or on top of the doorway. Additionally, the sign has to be "conspicious" and "readily visible." The burden is on the prosecutor as to every one of these elements of the offense. Why would you want to lessen that burden? I concur too with the K-man. Signage to me is a non-issue. Given the penalty for walking through the sign, it just does not light any activist fires under me.
Sure, I would prefer all business to have a "Welome Permit Holders" sign, but....I easily can live with the current law and would not want to see it debated and politicized to our detriment. I guess that puts me in the "cautiously optimistic about our law" category.
_________________ Paul Horvick
http://shootingsafely.com
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Contact us to schedule a class for you and your friends, and check our website for more information http://shootingsafely.com
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westhope
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Post subject: Posting Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:31 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:11 am Posts: 572 Location: West of Hope, MN (S. Central MN)
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I agree with "kimberMan" on the posting. MN has one of the best posting laws I've seen written. It allows a business to "feel good" by posting a sign. The law specifically states the sign location, the specific words required on the sign, the lettering required and the color of the letters and background.
After all that, you still must be specifically notified to leave because you carry and then refuse to leave. If you refuse, the first offense is a petty misdemeaner. Will any prosicuter want to spend any time proving all the above for a petty misdemeaner? I do not know of anyone that has yet received a citation for violating the posting.
The statute also specifically states the handgun cannot be confiscated.
Carry at any business you want. If notified to leave, leave. No problem. Do business elsewhere. If it is your place of employment, they can make up the rules they want since MN is an "at will" employment state.
I use the "No Guns = No $" cards I carry and do business elsewhere. (Although I do have a problem with my cancer treatments at the Mayo Clinic which is posted. Don't know what to do about that.)
By opening up the posting to revision in the legislature, there is a good chance we may be worse off.
Let's work on the reciprosity first outside the legislature.
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joelr
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:32 am |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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phorvick wrote: KimberMan wrote: Pakrat wrote: This is why we need to look at reforming the posting laws. Posting have to be between 4' and 6' (vertically). Why would you want to change this? It requires the signs to be at eye level, not hidden in the shrubbry or on top of the doorway. Additionally, the sign has to be "conspicious" and "readily visible." The burden is on the prosecutor as to every one of these elements of the offense. Why would you want to lessen that burden? I concur too with the K-man. Signage to me is a non-issue. Given the penalty for walking through the sign, it just does not light any activist fires under me. Sure, I would prefer all business to have a "Welome Permit Holders" sign, but....I easily can live with the current law and would not want to see it debated and politicized to our detriment. I guess that puts me in the "cautiously optimistic about our law" category.
I'm somewhere in between. I don't have any problem -- at all -- with people straightening out government entities that post unlawfully, and am largely neutral on the issue of the malls (like Joe, I'd like to embarrass the MoA's ownership on their own hypocrisy), but when it comes to private stores, while I'd like to encourage them to take the silly signs down, I think it needs to be done very carefully.
I do have a case in point, but if I talk about it publicly, I'll be screwing up the having-done-it-carefully part. Ask me about it in person some time.
_________________ Just a guy.
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stealthcarry
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Post subject: Re: Posting Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:13 am |
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:12 pm Posts: 76
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westhope wrote: I agree with "kimberMan" on the posting. MN has one of the best posting laws I've seen written. It allows a business to "feel good" by posting a sign. The law specifically states the sign location, the specific words required on the sign, the lettering required and the color of the letters and background.
After all that, you still must be specifically notified to leave because you carry and then refuse to leave. If you refuse, the first offense is a petty misdemeaner. Will any prosicuter want to spend any time proving all the above for a petty misdemeaner? I do not know of anyone that has yet received a citation for violating the posting.
The statute also specifically states the handgun cannot be confiscated.
Carry at any business you want. If notified to leave, leave. No problem. Do business elsewhere. If it is your place of employment, they can make up the rules they want since MN is an "at will" employment state.
I use the "No Guns = No $" cards I carry and do business elsewhere. (Although I do have a problem with my cancer treatments at the Mayo Clinic which is posted. Don't know what to do about that.) .
Was at Mayo on Monday and Tuesday for similar reason which necessitated my missing the group hug at Hamline. Saw signs, ignored same. One doctor saw the P-12 and asked, "is that a gun?" I replied, yes, do you have a problem with that?. He said, "not in the least". Later a technician asked if " i always carried." My reply was, not in the MRI machine.
Other than that it was a long but uneventful two days.
_________________ There are Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs.
Which are YOU?
NRA Life
JFPFO Life
GOA Life
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Pakrat
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:05 pm |
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Forum Moderator/<br>AV Geek |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:56 am Posts: 2422 Location: Hopkins, MN
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I skimmed replies, since what I said was mistaken.
I meant, there needs to be accountablility for posting. If this place posted at ground level, then permit holders should be able to fully ignore postings and not be asked to leave.
I love how specific the posting section is worded. But it amounts to nothing if sign/no sign they can ask us to leave. Might as well have no posting requirements.
_________________ Minnesota Permit to Carry Instructor; Utah Certified CFP Instructor
Last edited by Pakrat on Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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phorvick
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:11 pm |
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Forum Moderator |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:37 pm Posts: 1571 Location: Detroit Lakes, MN
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Pakrat wrote: I skimmed replies, since what I said was mistaken.
I meant, there needs to be accountablility for posting. If this place posted at ground level, then permit holders should be able to fully ignore postings and not be asked to leave.
I love how specific the posting section is worded. But it amounts to nothing if sign/no sign they can ask us to leave. But, a private business can ask a person to leave for any* reason. So, if there is no sign, and the business later somehow discerns that you are carrying, they can still ask you to leave.
*unless that reason is statutorily discrimination; i.e., you cannot ask a person to leave because we do not allow "your kind" in the store etc.
So, the signs just don't get me too excited one way or the other.
_________________ Paul Horvick
http://shootingsafely.com
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Contact us to schedule a class for you and your friends, and check our website for more information http://shootingsafely.com
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