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 Not entirely hypothetical question 
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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:29 am 
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Joel: please remove my moderator and admin flags. I no longer want to be associated with the management of this forum. The hit pieces, vendettas, and smearing are deplorable.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:34 am 
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windbreak wrote:
The aforementioned question was ENTIRELY a hypothetical question.
That's probably the best line for you to take.
Quote:
I do know what fraud is joel, and at no time was it being entertained.
That's simply not credible. You're not claiming that I misquoted you, are you?
Quote:
You can believe what you like about the other forum and it's members
Thank you not very much for your permission.
Quote:
and their lack of concern. I will then tell you that I received no less than 6 phone calls addressing that very question
Which question? "Are you a crook who hasn't been caught, a moron who doesn't understand what fraud is, or both?"
Quote:
from other instructors from that other forum. I have NEVER and I will NEVER issue a certificate without my signature and date. That's it, that's all there is, simple and TRUE. I have been a member here since July 2007 and hope to continue.

I think you fit in just fine there, as a (relatively speaking) upstanding member of the day care site community. I'm sure you'll be treated there accordingly.

Here, now that I know that you are "windbreak", you're at present welcome to remain a member, on a very short leash. Maybe some of the basics will rub off on you, although that's not the way to bet. I do believe in (secular) redemption, but denial is not the first step.

Check with an admin before posting any classes here; you've lost that privilege, for obvious reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:35 am 
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plblark wrote:
Joel: please remove my moderator and admin flags.
My pleasure.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:59 am 
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It appears to me that ANYONE who crosses "the man"--seems to loose all their privileges on this so-called forum. You think that MnGunTalk is a day care center ? you just can't let it go,can you ? In my heart of hearts, I believe you to be a loose cannon, and I would guess I'm not alone. There are others--right here--on this forum that believe the same. You can remove me from your kingdom--you are "THE KING OF NOTHING" :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:01 am 
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Can we get the names of the 6 instructors that also had to ask this question?

I want to make sure to avoid them along with Sam for my renewal class.

Let's just put this in perspective. The fact you guys charge for the class basically makes you a business or at least a indepandant contractor. As such can you provide a single example when it would be OK for a business to issue a signed but not date a legal document?

I've signed tens of thousands of puchase orders, letters, contracts, internal forms, you name it and I can't recall ever not dating one. About the only thing I don't date is greeting cards they send around in the interoffice mail.

Again, the fact anyone even has to ask raises concern about their overall competency.


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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:14 am 
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mmcnx2 wrote:
Can we get the names of the 6 instructors that also had to ask this question?

I want to make sure to avoid them along with Sam for my renewal class.

Let's just put this in perspective. The fact you guys charge for the class basically makes you a business or at least a indepandant contractor. As such can you provide a single example when it would be OK for a business to issue a signed but not date a legal document?

I've signed tens of thousands of puchase orders, letters, contracts, internal forms, you name it and I can't recall ever not dating one. About the only thing I don't date is greeting cards they send around in the interoffice mail.

Again, the fact anyone even has to ask raises concern about their overall competency.

The other instructors were not asking the same question--they were very specifically TELLING me the correct answer. Do not try to make this about someone else--if you feel the need for blood--it's my blood you want :wink:

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 Post subject: I am getting ALL this shit off my chest.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:41 am 
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I'm going to avoid stepping in the ookiness with this specific issue, but I'm gonna rant here.

To be fair, cross a certain mod at MGT and you lose privileges too. Actually, I didn't NEED to cross that mod to lose rights to their instructor forums. Why? Because that mod apparently thinks I was the source of this post getting out. :roll: Bullshit. But that's another topic, and whatever that mod wants to think is fine by me. I really don't care what he thinks, but I do wish he'd do his job in the fair manner he claims, because honestly, there are some good folks and fun discussions over there too.

All that bullshit aside...here's the meat of this.

There's a larger point that everyone is dancing around here, and it relates back to the half-assed activism at the Obama event and similar recent occurrences.

WHAT PART OF "THE LEGISLATURE CAN OVERTURN LAWS" DO SOME PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND?!?!?!?!

DAMNIT, people. Wake the fuck up! It took YEARS to get carry rights in this state. YEARS. And if this keeps up, whether it be people who shouldn't be talking to the media hunting down reporters, or instructors doing qualifications that wouldn't get a Boy Scout a merit badge, or people thinking that kissing ass to a representative is lobbying (talk to Kimberman if you want to learn what lobbying is, by the way), we can lose them in a snap of the fingers.

I, for one, am sick and fucking tired of "gun" people who have no interest in fighting for gun rights. It's the moral equivalent of being on welfare. You want to keep your rights? Then fight for them, or shut the hell up. You lose all rights to bitch, period. Don't want to go to the capitol? That's fine! So send emails. Make phone calls. Do SOMETHING, but do it with a brain, and if someone like Joe Olson or David Gross tells you you're being an idiot, take a long, hard look in the mirror. Because they're probably right.

Some people will say, "I don't wanna get involved, because Joel is doing it and he fucked up Treptow, and he fucked up this, and he fucked up that." Oh come ON. Are you really that short-sighted? I think Joel will be the first to admit that ego is not something he has in short supply, and while I'm guessing he's flattered to think that police and lawyers care enough about him to falsely prosecute a man, it just ain't the case.

Are people really that fucking petty that they won't show their damn faces at the capitol or at events simply because they're afraid of what someone else is going to do, or is it just an excuse to not have to do anything, and then have other people to blame when shit hits the fan?

I don't always agree with Joel. Other people here don't always agree with Joel. And that's fine. But there are bigger issues that someone's little fucking pissing match over his direct version of activism. Don't like it? Then organize. Do it better. Be there more. I dare you. I've been to the capitol with these folks, and they get listened to. They know the players. They know the events, and they know how to get things done. These guys can get a note to a legislator in the middle of a hearing, or on the House or Senate floor, and get the politician to actually read it and consider it. Unless you can do the same, guess what, you're doing it wrong. Glad handing folks and actually fighting for something are very different.

Pissed off because an instructor org tells a sheriff that they are breaking the law, or lets the BCA know that an instructor is cutting corners? My only question is, why weren't you reporting it first? Since when is rolling over and getting screwed over a useful tactic? How does it help us to have this type of shit going on in our community? Give me a good answer to that. Please. Because nobody has even tried to give me one yet, other than, "but Joel is just mean...." That's irrelevant. Give me a real answer. How does handing someone a pre-loaded .22lr and having people fire 10 shots at 10 feet demonstrate ANYTHING other than a total disregard for the spirit of the law? And do NOT fucking try to tell me this doesn't happen, because a member here with no dog in this fight JUST saw someone do it, and range management confirmed it happens regularly.

So explain all that to me. Please.

I'm staying out of the current hypothetical. Why? Because no matter what I say, I can't win.

Wow, I need coffee.

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: I am getting ALL this shit off my chest.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:01 am 
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mrokern wrote:
I'm going to avoid stepping in the ookiness with this specific issue, but I'm gonna rant here.

To be fair, cross a certain mod at MGT and you lose privileges too. Actually, I didn't NEED to cross that mod to lose rights to their instructor forums. Why? Because that mod apparently thinks I was the source of this post getting out. :roll: Bullshit. But that's another topic, and whatever that mod wants to think is fine by me. I really don't care what he thinks, but I do wish he'd do his job in the fair manner he claims, because honestly, there are some good folks and fun discussions over there too.

All that bullshit aside...here's the meat of this.

There's a larger point that everyone is dancing around here, and it relates back to the half-assed activism at the Obama event and similar recent occurrences.

WHAT PART OF "THE LEGISLATURE CAN OVERTURN LAWS" DO SOME PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND?!?!?!?!

DAMNIT, people. Wake the fuck up! It took YEARS to get carry rights in this state. YEARS. And if this keeps up, whether it be people who shouldn't be talking to the media hunting down reporters, or instructors doing qualifications that wouldn't get a Boy Scout a merit badge, or people thinking that kissing ass to a representative is lobbying (talk to Kimberman if you want to learn what lobbying is, by the way), we can lose them in a snap of the fingers.

I, for one, am sick and fucking tired of "gun" people who have no interest in fighting for gun rights. It's the moral equivalent of being on welfare. You want to keep your rights? Then fight for them, or shut the hell up. You lose all rights to bitch, period. Don't want to go to the capitol? That's fine! So send emails. Make phone calls. Do SOMETHING, but do it with a brain, and if someone like Joe Olson or David Gross tells you you're being an idiot, take a long, hard look in the mirror. Because they're probably right.

Some people will say, "I don't wanna get involved, because Joel is doing it and he fucked up Treptow, and he fucked up this, and he fucked up that." Oh come ON. Are you really that short-sighted? I think Joel will be the first to admit that ego is not something he has in short supply, and while I'm guessing he's flattered to think that police and lawyers care enough about him to falsely prosecute a man, it just ain't the case.

Are people really that fucking petty that they won't show their damn faces at the capitol or at events simply because they're afraid of what someone else is going to do, or is it just an excuse to not have to do anything, and then have other people to blame when shit hits the fan?

I don't always agree with Joel. Other people here don't always agree with Joel. And that's fine. But there are bigger issues that someone's little fucking pissing match over his direct version of activism. Don't like it? Then organize. Do it better. Be there more. I dare you. I've been to the capitol with these folks, and they get listened to. They know the players. They know the events, and they know how to get things done. These guys can get a note to a legislator in the middle of a hearing, or on the House or Senate floor, and get the politician to actually read it and consider it. Unless you can do the same, guess what, you're doing it wrong. Glad handing folks and actually fighting for something are very different.

Pissed off because an instructor org tells a sheriff that they are breaking the law, or lets the BCA know that an instructor is cutting corners? My only question is, why weren't you reporting it first? Since when is rolling over and getting screwed over a useful tactic? How does it help us to have this type of shit going on in our community? Give me a good answer to that. Please. Because nobody has even tried to give me one yet, other than, "but Joel is just mean...." That's irrelevant. Give me a real answer. How does handing someone a pre-loaded .22lr and having people fire 10 shots at 10 feet demonstrate ANYTHING other than a total disregard for the spirit of the law? And do NOT fucking try to tell me this doesn't happen, because a member here with no dog in this fight JUST saw someone do it, and range management confirmed it happens regularly.

So explain all that to me. Please.

I'm staying out of the current hypothetical. Why? Because no matter what I say, I can't win.

Wow, I need coffee.

-Mark


+ at least a million...

<subordinate rant>
It's fairly well-known around here that I'm one of the more liberal folks around here. (Not a bleeding-heart socialist, mind you, but more liberal than the average hereabouts.) I don't always agree with Joel, and I occasionally disagree with "the Man" publicly if I feel strongly enough. I don't think I agree with *anyone* here 100% of the time. Nonetheless, I was made an admin, not banned (and at least one other "liberal" here has received the same honor), so I don't buy the "disagree with Joel and you're banned" malarkey. I frequent this forum, and not another not-appearing-in-this-post forum, because the average level of discourse here is *far* higher than the utter BS that goes on much of the time over there.

Seriously, folks. Between this instructor question and another poster here's asinine grab at publicity, I've seen enough to make me want to puke this morning. I don't know if it's something in the water lately, but some folks need to reverse their cranio-rectal inversions and wake the fuck up.

Inadequate instructors? Bad- they're what will likely someday get the carry law reversed, if it happens. Idiots at Presidential appearances showing off their "rights" to the press? Ditto- if not worse. Hard, behind-the-scenes work at the Capitol? Good- that's what got us this far, and what will keep us here until the next chance to move forward (which, given the political climate in MN and nationally, is going to be a while).

Wow.

</subordinate rant>

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 Post subject: Re: I am getting ALL this shit off my chest.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:29 am 
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mrokern wrote:
I'm going to avoid stepping in the ookiness with this specific issue, but I'm gonna rant here.

To be fair, cross a certain mod at MGT and you lose privileges too. Actually, I didn't NEED to cross that mod to lose rights to their instructor forums. Why? Because that mod apparently thinks I was the source of this post getting out. :roll: Bullshit. But that's another topic, and whatever that mod wants to think is fine by me. I really don't care what he thinks, but I do wish he'd do his job in the fair manner he claims, because honestly, there are some good folks and fun discussions over there too.

All that bullshit aside...here's the meat of this.

There's a larger point that everyone is dancing around here, and it relates back to the half-assed activism at the Obama event and similar recent occurrences.

WHAT PART OF "THE LEGISLATURE CAN OVERTURN LAWS" DO SOME PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND?!?!?!?!

DAMNIT, people. Wake the fuck up! It took YEARS to get carry rights in this state. YEARS. And if this keeps up, whether it be people who shouldn't be talking to the media hunting down reporters, or instructors doing qualifications that wouldn't get a Boy Scout a merit badge, or people thinking that kissing ass to a representative is lobbying (talk to Kimberman if you want to learn what lobbying is, by the way), we can lose them in a snap of the fingers.

I, for one, am sick and fucking tired of "gun" people who have no interest in fighting for gun rights. It's the moral equivalent of being on welfare. You want to keep your rights? Then fight for them, or shut the hell up. You lose all rights to bitch, period. Don't want to go to the capitol? That's fine! So send emails. Make phone calls. Do SOMETHING, but do it with a brain, and if someone like Joe Olson or David Gross tells you you're being an idiot, take a long, hard look in the mirror. Because they're probably right.

Some people will say, "I don't wanna get involved, because Joel is doing it and he fucked up Treptow, and he fucked up this, and he fucked up that." Oh come ON. Are you really that short-sighted? I think Joel will be the first to admit that ego is not something he has in short supply, and while I'm guessing he's flattered to think that police and lawyers care enough about him to falsely prosecute a man, it just ain't the case.

Are people really that fucking petty that they won't show their damn faces at the capitol or at events simply because they're afraid of what someone else is going to do, or is it just an excuse to not have to do anything, and then have other people to blame when shit hits the fan?

I don't always agree with Joel. Other people here don't always agree with Joel. And that's fine. But there are bigger issues that someone's little fucking pissing match over his direct version of activism. Don't like it? Then organize. Do it better. Be there more. I dare you. I've been to the capitol with these folks, and they get listened to. They know the players. They know the events, and they know how to get things done. These guys can get a note to a legislator in the middle of a hearing, or on the House or Senate floor, and get the politician to actually read it and consider it. Unless you can do the same, guess what, you're doing it wrong. Glad handing folks and actually fighting for something are very different.

Pissed off because an instructor org tells a sheriff that they are breaking the law, or lets the BCA know that an instructor is cutting corners? My only question is, why weren't you reporting it first? Since when is rolling over and getting screwed over a useful tactic? How does it help us to have this type of shit going on in our community? Give me a good answer to that. Please. Because nobody has even tried to give me one yet, other than, "but Joel is just mean...." That's irrelevant. Give me a real answer. How does handing someone a pre-loaded .22lr and having people fire 10 shots at 10 feet demonstrate ANYTHING other than a total disregard for the spirit of the law? And do NOT fucking try to tell me this doesn't happen, because a member here with no dog in this fight JUST saw someone do it, and range management confirmed it happens regularly.

So explain all that to me. Please.

I'm staying out of the current hypothetical. Why? Because no matter what I say, I can't win.

Wow, I need coffee.

-Mark


What he said!! I couldn't have said it better with the help of a team to help my poor literary skills.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:03 pm 
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Thanks, Mark.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:42 pm 
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windbreak wrote:
you are "THE KING OF NOTHING" :lol:
True enough, Scott. If you'd like to have your account suspended, you can email or PM me; not a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:45 pm 
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plblark wrote:
The hit pieces, vendettas, and smearing are deplorable.
I think you should just have saved your time by cutting and pasting from that ACORN press release, after several of their folks were "smeared" by accurately reporting what they said. It comes to about the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:55 pm 
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plblark wrote:
Context makes all the difference. In a private setting among peers, a question was asked. He's trying to determine what should be on the certificate to specifically comply with the law and make sure it's not used to get a permit in MN.
That's silly -- again, quoting the Scott D. Olson: "Should I issue a certificate with no date--to be filled in later?"

As to the "context," I quoted Scott D. Olson's post in total, in the hypothetical, above.

Here, it's a hypothetical; at the day care site, even you implicitly admit that it was not a hypothetical, as you claim (correctly) that it had a real resolution, where Scott D. Olson said (perhaps accurately) that he had subsequently issued a certificate with a valid date, not a blank one.

A hypothetical scenario which is purportedly resolved by a real person taking a real class and getting a real, purportedly properly dated certificate? This word, "hypothetical" -- it doesn't mean what you claim to think it means.

The only thing "hypothetical" about it was that he had not, at that time, issued an undated certificate to a somebody who would have had no use, in Minnesota, for a properly dated certificate -- and then only in the sense that it was in the ACORN scandal, where it was arguably "hypothetical" as to whether or not the ACORN employees would actually have helped set up a bordello for illegal alien minors.

If you're going to argue that he may well have, as he said he did, not actually issue an undated certificate, I won't quibble; I don't know, either way, and I'm not claiming that he actually did.

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 Post subject: Re: Not entirely hypothetical question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:10 pm 
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So a guy asked a question on a private forum. Question got answered. No action that was unethical took place. People discuss doing illegal and unethical things all the time. There is nothing wrong with talking about them. There is everything wrong with doing them. What exactly is there in this situation to get ones undies in a bunch? Nothing happened.

Where did the BCA go wrong? Not being involved in a private discussion? Not cracking down on an instructor for thinking about doing something wrong?

I also doubt the ethics of using information that is, in effect, stolen.

Speaking as myself:

Joel, you are making a stink about absolutely nothing. To what benefit? What are you hoping to get out of this? I don't get it. This is silly.


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 Post subject: Re: I am getting ALL this shit off my chest.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:24 pm 
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mrokern wrote:
There's a larger point that everyone is dancing around here, and it relates back to the half-assed activism at the Obama event and similar recent occurrences.

WHAT PART OF "THE LEGISLATURE CAN OVERTURN LAWS" DO SOME PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND?!?!?!?!
All of it, I think.
Quote:

DAMNIT, people. Wake the fuck up! It took YEARS to get carry rights in this state. YEARS. And if this keeps up, whether it be people who shouldn't be talking to the media hunting down reporters, or instructors doing qualifications that wouldn't get a Boy Scout a merit badge, or people thinking that kissing ass to a representative is lobbying (talk to Kimberman if you want to learn what lobbying is, by the way), we can lose them in a snap of the fingers.
One of the many things I actively despise about some of the folks who take shortcuts is that they are clearly relying on those of us who actually do the work to cover for them by silence, for fear of the legislature taking a look at the statute. I have said for a long time, to anybody who will listen, that that won't work, that that cat is long since out of the bag and Bad Instructor Stuff will come out. About the only thing I can do is to bring it out during the legislature's off season.
Quote:

I, for one, am sick and fucking tired of "gun" people who have no interest in fighting for gun rights. It's the moral equivalent of being on welfare. You want to keep your rights? Then fight for them, or shut the hell up. You lose all rights to bitch, period. Don't want to go to the capitol? That's fine! So send emails. Make phone calls. Do SOMETHING, but do it with a brain, and if someone like Joe Olson or David Gross tells you you're being an idiot, take a long, hard look in the mirror. Because they're probably right.

Some people will say, "I don't wanna get involved, because Joel is doing it and he fucked up Treptow, and he fucked up this, and he fucked up that."
I wish we could have done better by Treptow, really I do -- but it wasn't for lack of trying. The Pinnacle/pointy-brained nonsense that Treptow was prosecuted because I blogged about the case, though, well, that's just stupid. That was just Andy having conniptions because he didn't want his badged buddies embarrassed, and saying anything that came to his mouth.
Quote:
Oh come ON. Are you really that short-sighted? I think Joel will be the first to admit that ego is not something he has in short supply, and while I'm guessing he's flattered to think that police and lawyers care enough about him to falsely prosecute a man, it just ain't the case.

Are people really that fucking petty that they won't show their damn faces at the capitol or at events simply because they're afraid of what someone else is going to do, or is it just an excuse to not have to do anything, and then have other people to blame when shit hits the fan?
I'm not sure. There's a fair number of folks who really want the results without doing the work. And that's okay, really; of the 65,000 people in the state who have carry permits, I'm sure that many never made a call, wrote a letter, or visited the Capitol to try to get reform passed, and protect it.

But the kiddies over at the day care site who don't lift a finger other than to type one-handed on the keyboard while using the other hand to play with their Little Warriors don't get to decide what anybody who is willing to actually do the work does.

Talking over at the day care sight about how much "clout" you have may amuse the bunch at Alary's after they've knocked back enough beer; it doesn't carry any weight here.
Quote:

I don't always agree with Joel. Other people here don't always agree with Joel. And that's fine. But there are bigger issues that someone's little fucking pissing match over his direct version of activism. Don't like it? Then organize. Do it better. Be there more. I dare you. I've been to the capitol with these folks, and they get listened to. They know the players. They know the events, and they know how to get things done. These guys can get a note to a legislator in the middle of a hearing, or on the House or Senate floor, and get the politician to actually read it and consider it.
Visibility and credibility at the Capital isn't something that you get overnight. If it's important to you to be taken seriously there, you've got to actually show up, repeatedly, and make it clear that you do have some issues that there is some good reason to address. Why do you think, say, Dean Johnson agreed to a floor vote in 2005 on the MCPPA repassage. Was it because Tom Tousignant was up at the Capital with his buttonholing gladhanding or Andy Shapero with his tactical kneepads? Nah. It was because lots and lots of folks -- me included -- made it clear that we wouldn't settle for anything short of a floor vote. And we were, at times, not entirely nice. You could ask Wes "Skogie" Skoglund about that.

And, for that matter, you could also ask those legislators who saw the light and did the right thing how they were treated, after that . . . including the one who came up to me, last Saturday after I spoke at the Tea Party rally -- in which I made it clear that my vote, at least, isn't owned by any party, but by some ideals -- and thanked me for keeping the heat on.
Quote:

Unless you can do the same, guess what, you're doing it wrong. Glad handing folks and actually fighting for something are very different.

Pissed off because an instructor org tells a sheriff that they are breaking the law, or lets the BCA know that an instructor is cutting corners? My only question is, why weren't you reporting it first?
I think one awful but open secret of the BCA is that reporting a violation to them is about like dropping an aspirin off the Empire State building, hoping it'll fall into the mouth of somebody with a headache.

It might work; I dunno -- but I've never wasted my time trying either, and the folks who I have seen try to get the BCA to do their damn job with regard to regulating training organizations have largely bumped their head against the wall. How long was it between when somebody -- not me -- reported multiple instructors fudging on the "actual shooting qualification exercise" and the BCA doing nothing more than issue a letter, saying, "Stop that"? Was it two years, or was it longer?

The BCA? Pfui. Back in 2005, a bunch of us -- names upon request -- were able to shortcut the BCA's attempt to turn permit training over, in fact if not quite in law, to the Minnesota Sheriffs Association, when the MSA made their power grab.

But having failed to hand the authority off to their MSA buddies, the folks at the BCA have satisfied themselves largely with depositing checks -- lots of checks -- and maintaining the secure server. Sending a cop undercover to take a carry class or a hundred and seeing if the instructor will sign off without "the completion of an actual shooting exercise"? You've got to be kidding -- that would be work, and the BCA is utterly uninterested in doing work in support of carry permits in Minnesota.

About the only way I think they might get with it is to be embarrassed into it. If some politician were to call them up and say, this has been going on and this and that -- and what have you folks been doing? You don't mean to tell me that with umpty-ump bucks turned over to you from permit fees, you can't even send one cop to ask of some scuzzy instructor will sign off on a certificate without a class?

Gee . . . I wonder what might motivate that . . .
Quote:

Since when is rolling over and getting screwed over a useful tactic? How does it help us to have this type of shit going on in our community? Give me a good answer to that. Please. Because nobody has even tried to give me one yet, other than, "but Joel is just mean...."
Yup; I'm mean. Case closed. There's far more interesting things to discuss than whether or not I'm mean.

In the long run, the Bad Instructor Stuff will be cleaned up by social pressure on the bad instructors, or Daddy Lege will come in and try to do it for us.

Light is a much better disinfectant than legislation. Look it up.

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