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 AACFI - Minnesota's oldest CCW instructor certifying org 
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:02 pm 
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Here we are all apologizing to one another. I was not referring to any specific post (in my comment about personal attacks)...it was more that I felt it was heading in that direction.

As to the e-mails, although I did not receive any of the type you did, I was aware of them and also reacted the same way you did. I believe that is part of the PR problem I see AACFI having.

I know that I have done things and said things to others and in classes that in hindsight I wished I had not; yet, that makes at most a small ripple in the big scheme of things as neither I, nor my firm, is perceived as a big fish. AACFI is seen as a big fish, and things that they may wish they had not said or done create not just a tiny ripple, but more like a tidal wave and it can be upsetting to a lot of people.

My guess is that this is another reason the preference has been expressed to call them so that there is no miscommunication.

Now, JOEL...should this be locked at this point???

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 Post subject: Re: Rebuttle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:52 pm 
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durbin6 wrote:
This is a touchy issue for me and please read this entire post before condemming me. My whole point in the discussion was not to bash the AACFI as an organization, just what fees they charge. Some may find it acceptable, others are going to feel like me and think it's outrageous. I think they have a quality curriculum and offer a fine class. This is more about making MPPA sucessful statewide and all of us attempting to be on the same page.

I have the same secure web access and ordering options for materials through the NRA and it only costs me $25/year, not per month. I also have many many many other benefits throught the NRA that are included in my $25 membership. I can also get support fram any NRA training counselor I want if I need it.

By sending out an email months in advance of being approved by the DPS was, in my opinion, putting the cart before the horse and caused some outrage in many of us on the NRA bench. Tim and I exchanged emails about this until 1:00am when I received the first email. Receiving the email a second time before the approved organizational standards were adopted and approved by the DPS didn't do much to help matters and was interpreted as rather arrogant on the part of the AACFI, especially when it is an NRA instructor on the receiving end and I had already had a very lengthy discussion on the topic a couple of months earlier.

We all know that Joe and Tim were a very strong presence in getting MPPA passed and this was never intended to be a "personal attack" on them. Again, nuff said about the whole thing. I apologize if I offended Joe or the administrators of this forum, please remove the original post if it found offensive by anyone..
Jerry: AACFI is arrogant and from what I was told, that AACFI and Bill's was trying to be the only one's that would meet the DPS qualifications. I know when I sent Tim e-mails about what was going on. He did not reply. I sent him 3 e-mails about the update that we had to do and what dates, times and loc. was the trianing for the updates going to be. No reply from him but I did some checking around to find out that the update was at Bill's. I get the feeling that AACFI don't support there guy's. Not good. The cost is why I did my own course. See www.creditcardshotgun.com There lot more I could say but I won't for now....


Last edited by lastgunshop on Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rebuttle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:11 pm 
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lastgunshop wrote:
There lot more I could say but I won't for now....


I'll say it then: even giving off the impression, true or not, that one worked hard to pass legislation in order to directly benefit financially in the future casts us all in a dim light. While working to pass the MPPA was admirable, doing anything less than working hard to ensure that there are many well-qualified and certified instructors from many different sources in Minnesota after that passage is not.

FWIW, I say that not as an instructor who has a dog in this fight, I don't, but as someone who was an instructor a long time ago, and was helping train the local PDs at Camp Ripley well before the MPPA was anything but a dream. I've had to jump through hoops before, and those hoops were reasonable (becoming an NRA instructor in order to rent Ripley's ranges as a civilian). I do not know that the gentleman I was helping train with would have been able to do what he did if the hoops were 800 dollars high for every employee that needed to become a RSO.

Anyhow, my opinion is worth what you pay to read it on the internet, but I have yet to hear or read a good reason why MORE qualified instructors would be a bad thing. I have yet to hear why keeping costs down, so people who don't have a ton of spending money can get a permit to carry as well as the suburban white male who already spends too much (according to the wife) on shooting and reloading. Instructor certification costs will be passed on to the consumer. That makes me hopeful that low-cost, high quality instructor certification will be available in order to ensure long-time NRA instructors do not have to spend a whole lot of money (and pass that on to students with higher class prices) to retain certification.

If instructors are able to attain certification through the state and charge a whole lot less than "the oldest" ones do, I wish them luck. We all should, because it will help EVERYONE in the long run.


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 Post subject: Re: Rebuttle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:17 pm 
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goalie wrote:
lastgunshop wrote:
There lot more I could say but I won't for now....


I'll say it then: even giving off the impression, true or not, that one worked hard to pass legislation in order to directly benefit financially in the future casts us all in a dim light. While working to pass the MPPA was admirable, doing anything less than working hard to ensure that there are many well-qualified and certified instructors from many different sources in Minnesota after that passage is not.

FWIW, I say that not as an instructor who has a dog in this fight, I don't, but as someone who was an instructor a long time ago, and was helping train the local PDs at Camp Ripley well before the MPPA was anything but a dream. I've had to jump through hoops before, and those hoops were reasonable (becoming an NRA instructor in order to rent Ripley's ranges as a civilian). I do not know that the gentleman I was helping train with would have been able to do what he did if the hoops were 800 dollars high for every employee that needed to become a RSO.

Anyhow, my opinion is worth what you pay to read it on the internet, but I have yet to hear or read a good reason why MORE qualified instructors would be a bad thing. I have yet to hear why keeping costs down, so people who don't have a ton of spending money can get a permit to carry as well as the suburban white male who already spends too much (according to the wife) on shooting and reloading. Instructor certification costs will be passed on to the consumer. That makes me hopeful that low-cost, high quality instructor certification will be available in order to ensure long-time NRA instructors do not have to spend a whole lot of money (and pass that on to students with higher class prices) to retain certification.

If instructors are able to attain certification through the state and charge a whole lot less than "the oldest" ones do, I wish them luck. We all should, because it will help EVERYONE in the long run.
Counld'nt have said it any better.


Last edited by lastgunshop on Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Amen!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:05 pm 
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Well worded Goalie :!:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:12 pm 
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Yes, Very Well Worded Goalie!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:14 pm 
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Durbin "Well worded Goalie"


Ditto :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:39 pm 
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There's been a fair amount of heat, and light in this topic, and I'm not going to add to either at the moment.

But I do think I need to address some general issues; look for a new Words from the Management later tonight, or tomorrow evening, at the latest. I'm not particularly concerned with the present tempest in a teapot, but there are some general principles and issues that I feel the need to address.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:59 pm 
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So add me to the group that got an invitation to discuss my concerns, which I replied that I didn't have concerns, but observations.

Quote:
However, he has also told me that he was informed at a recent certification class that after 10-1, only the AACFI would be instructing students.


I had a student of mine that was told by AACFI that I could not instruct anymore either after October 1st, that only AACFI would be certified to do so. So of course I told him that they were full of you know what, and he took my class anyway.
Now if it is concerns or observations, maybe it is issues that I have. Most have been addressed above, some have been posted under other topics,but I have more I could add, but I think would be in better taste to let AACFI know what they are before posting what may be considered gossip.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:24 am 
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Does anyone have an updated version of this supposed list?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:32 am 
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Pierre wrote:
Does anyone have an updated version of this supposed list?


Is this what you are looking for???????

http://www.dps.state.mn.us/bca/Invest/D ... ssPPA.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:47 pm 
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cobb wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Does anyone have an updated version of this supposed list?


Is this what you are looking for???????

http://www.dps.state.mn.us/bca/Invest/D ... ssPPA.html


Cobb,
thanks!!! That was the list I was looking for. The list has grown significantly. I see that the listing of all the organizations thread is locked. Maybe a new update or kept updated thread would be in order, that way people that surf here would be able to find the most current listings, since this forum is kind of a focal point for carry permits in the Twin Cities metro.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:28 pm 
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Pierre wrote:
cobb wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Does anyone have an updated version of this supposed list?


Is this what you are looking for???????

http://www.dps.state.mn.us/bca/Invest/D ... ssPPA.html


Cobb,
thanks!!! That was the list I was looking for. The list has grown significantly. I see that the listing of all the organizations thread is locked. Maybe a new update or kept updated thread would be in order, that way people that surf here would be able to find the most current listings, since this forum is kind of a focal point for carry permits in the Twin Cities metro.
I'm glad to hear that latter -- that was kind of my hope -- but I'm not sure that there's a great need to point to the DPS listing that visibly. Not that I think there's a problem with doing it.

On the other hand, I do think it's probably about time for me or another of the moderators, (he said, trolling for a volunteer) to send an invitation to all the organizations on the DPS list to put in a listing here. I haven't done it for awhile, and until my hand gets better after the surgery, that kind of cutting-and-pasting is something that I'm going to avoid, whenever possible.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:46 pm 
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Volunteer?? ......... ok. I'll have some time this week and see what I can do. :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:46 pm 
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ttousi wrote:
Volunteer?? ......... ok. I'll have some time this week and see what I can do. :)


Done. Did not send to obvious forum participants. Only had 3 non deliverables.....corrected 1 e-mail address, 1 mailbox full and 1 ???.

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