Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive :: View topic - Is it crossing the line to require a SS# for permit ?

Dick Unger wrote:

The Sheriff also has computerized ARREST records, which show any arrest, even if there was no conviction.

Police really value these. So, if there is a police report that you were arrested, told them to fuck off, and then you were released because you were the wrong person, they'll still evaluate your conduct. You can't get these records, but law enforcement gets them just as part of the routine.

MostlyHarmless wrote:

The college I attended had, several years before my arrival there, suffered the administrative headache of having two people in the student body with the same first, middle, and last names and the same birthdate.

Andrew Rothman wrote:

I think you can, after the fact.

https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=13.82

Dick Unger wrote:

farmerj wrote:

The reference to Dachau is spot on where this can and appears to be going with the "needed" SSN everyone wants.

Author:	Dick Unger [ Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:30 am ]
Post subject:
You can tell him it's not required, but if he wants a special background check has a question special to your case you'll help him sort it out. But not just provide a social number that would remain in his file for future reference. If he wants a computer check, for example, you could possibly type in your own number for him. But there is no legal basis for his requiring this, and if he has his own policy, it's contrary to federal policy to require it. If he wants more information, he's supposed to get off his butt and go out and get it, not play with his computer. That's why we pay the big $100 fee for the permit, and he gets a whole month to do it.

Author:	Andrew Rothman [ Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:42 am ]
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Let's remember that the sheriff has access to the full criminal records system of the state, as well as the FBI and his county. He also has your driver's license info. I doubt very much that this sheriff actually needs the SSN. He's on a power trip.

Author:	Dick Unger [ Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:48 am ]
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The Sheriff also has computerized ARREST records, which show any arrest, even if there was no conviction. Police really value these. So, if there is a police report that you were arrested, told them to fuck off, and then you were released because you were the wrong person, they'll still evaluate your conduct. You can't get these records, but law enforcement gets them just as part of the routine.

Author:	Andrew Rothman [ Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:40 pm ]
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I think you can, after the fact. https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=13.82 Dick Unger wrote: The Sheriff also has computerized ARREST records, which show any arrest, even if there was no conviction. Police really value these. So, if there is a police report that you were arrested, told them to fuck off, and then you were released because you were the wrong person, they'll still evaluate your conduct. You can't get these records, but law enforcement gets them just as part of the routine.

Author:	vfrdirk [ Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:34 pm ]
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If it was between "Let me check your SSN to verify that you're not the rapist with the same name and DOB" and "Permit denied because you're a danger to self or others based on your criminal record", I think I'd cough up the SSN. Whether the sheriff should be able to tell us apart without that piece of information is a question I don't know enough to answer. I DO know that once I started giving my SSN on 4473 forms, I stopped getting delayed and started proceeding on all my transactions.

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Is it crossing the line to require a SS# for permit ? http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11185	Page 2 of 2

Author:	kimberman [ Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:13 am ]
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I'm in Munich, Germany at the moment about 30 miles from Dachau. I've been there (when I was 12), have you? People forget their SSAN's so why not have government, AS A CONVENIENCE, just tattoo it on your forearm? Any policeman can ask to look at it. After all, if you aren't a criminal (but simply a gun owner), why would you care. It's a new service from the nanny State. Enjoy your tax dollars at work. Laws exist to provide 'tools' to law enforcement and make the Sheriff's job easier. Ask any DFLer. Try this analogy for the sheriff in question. If your new puppy craps on the rug and you once give it a cookie, it will always crap on the rug. It used to be that even children knew this simple fact.

Author:	cdl [ Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:48 pm ]
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The law is the law and I'd hope we were all taught to exercise our 5th amendment rights and had the fortitude and conviction to back up that belief. How many people really think the Sheriff can't find a SSN all on their own if they really needed it. If there was a legitimate reason to deny that permit you can bet the Sheriff would have used it and you can bet that person knew what was going to happen when they said no. "must not be asked or required to submit, voluntarily or involuntarily, any information, fees, or documentation beyond that specifically required " Seems pretty definitive to me. The Sheriff can't even ask.

Author:	someone1980 [ Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:52 pm ]
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MostlyHarmless wrote: The college I attended had, several years before my arrival there, suffered the administrative headache of having two people in the student body with the same first, middle, and last names and the same birthdate. That is why we in the computer industry really, really like unique keys. As a matter of fact we just make them up to make sure they are unique, often as a linear sequence. At the U of MN it is called a "Student ID Number" and is used in all sorts of university databases to uniquely identify me. Oh and to be on topic. If it isn't in the law it is pretty much B.S. for them to ask for it.

Author:	Dick Unger [ Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:59 am ]
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Andrew Rothman wrote: I think you can, after the fact. https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=13.82 Dick Unger wrote: The Sheriff also has computerized ARREST records, which show any arrest, even if there was no conviction. Police really value these. So, if there is a police report that you were arrested, told them to fuck off, and then you were released because you were the wrong person, they'll still evaluate your conduct. You can't get these records, but law enforcement gets them just as part of the routine. Im sure you can get the specific records. But the police use a state wide data base both for themselves and for criminal history checks for employment or housing. When they check they get arrest data, when an employer or landlord checks they don't. At least that's our local policy. I never pushed it. I would imagine that a data practices request to 87 counties would produce public information, but it's my understanding that they won't give out the data report on arrests. Maybe someone here can tell for sure?

Author:	farmerj [ Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:39 am ]
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all too familiar with the options of what is available to LEO through the "database". Scary shit. And people are concerned. Looking at the public records, there are 3 people in the state with my name. Full middle and last. Never once has there been an issue that has come up that my DL number has not cleared up an identity issue. The reference to Dachau is spot on where this can and appears to be going with the "needed" SSN everyone wants.

Author:	jrp267 [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:05 pm ]
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I never divulge my ssn. And my name Jeffrey r. Peterson pretty common. They dont need it. and credit checks can even be done by address if needed. I would'nt rent from someone who insisted on having all the info needed to steal my identity.

Author:	Carbide Insert [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:59 am ]
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farmerj wrote: The reference to Dachau is spot on where this can and appears to be going with the "needed" SSN everyone wants. Replace the "SSN" in the above quote with "DL". There's no difference. Everyone wants to see my papers these days. I hate it. When you put down your DL, it's the same as putting down your SSN. The numbers are connected, and they are both unique. The only difference is it's not tattooed on your arm.

Author:	SSG B [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:03 pm ]
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I have been giving my SSN to lots of people, lots of times, for a long time. Everyone in the Army knows what I am talking about. I used to have a admin NCO who had about 75% of the Battalions SSN numbers memorized. I really don't see it as being that big of an issue if the Sheriff is looking for it. If he really wants to find it, he is going to find it.

Author:	CustomEclipseII [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:22 pm ]
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Thought the forum would like to know, Applicant received permit without having to provide social security number. Initially the Sheriff stated that the refusal to process was done at the advice of the County Attorney. When the permit came, it was accompanied by a letter that stated the County Attorney’s advice had changed. Applicant submitted application in an outstate county on November 17, 2008 and received permit on January 10, 2009 (day 54). I submitted my renewal application in Hennepin on November 24, 2008 and received my new permit on December 27, 2008 (day 33). I don't know why, but for some reason i feel like I am the one who got gypped.

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Author:	xd9fan [ Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:13 pm ]
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so is asking for fingerprints......that is my personal line in the sand. I am not a criminal.