Has anyone received a sign off on the Federal form for a SBR in St. Paul.
Was the Police Chief easy to work with?

From what I understand, CLEOs tend to not like signing those ATF forms because they feel they are on the hook for something should you F-UP with your new SBR/AOW.

It would seem that in discussing the topic with others, most find it easier to form a trust and do your ATF paperwork in the name of the trust. No chief signatures and no FBI background check and no finger print cards.

and multiple people (husband / wife / anyone in the trust) can possess it.

I received a PM from another user on the board asking for details on the Trust thing so I thought I would reply here for everyone's benefit...

I have only researched the topic of purchasing a title II firearm (SBR/AOW) in the name of a trust with the intent of making a purchase soon but have not done so as of yet... just to let the reader (you all) know...

In the state of MN, it is my understanding that a trust does not need to be registered with the state, only notarized. Also, because the trust is being setup for a firearm purchase and not real estate, a simple boilerplate trust will (should) be fine. What others have recommended is Quicken WillMaker (current version). You can either download the software from their site for around $60: http://www.nolo.com/product.cfm/ObjectID/6E9ED903-C9B4-42E0-9C2E235DD87A0A8A/catid/FD1795A9-8049-422C-9087838F86A2BC2B/309/ ... or do what I did and get the software from the Hennepin County library and <s>burn a copy of the CDROM</s> install the software on your computer.

When naming your trust, others have recommended that you include your real name (full or last) in the name of the trust. In other words, you could name your trust "The Kickass NFA Firearms Trust" (not suggested) or "The Bill and Melinda Gates NFA Trust" (suggested). The reason for this is... when you take your NFA firearm to the range and soon find yourself surround by cops, the name on your driver license will somewhat resemble all or part of the name listed on the ATF paperwork that you are required to keep with the gun at all times. It would probably be a good idea to have a copy of your trust with you as well. As plblark mentioned, the benefit of having a trust is that everyone listed on the trust can be in possession of the NFA firearm. If the gun is registered to "Fred Smith", only Fred can be in possession of the gun.

Once you form your trust, you need to find a Title II firearms dealer in the state where you live (also referred to as a class iii dealer). When you do, select your gun, you and the dealer will complete the paperwork together (most likely because you will need serial number etc...) and mail the paperwork to the ATF with a check for $200 (NFA tax).

Because the ATF paperwork is in the name of a trust, you cut through a lot of red tape which decreases the amount of time required to get your approved paperwork back from the ATF. Some have said they get their paperwork back in as little as 30 days. If you dont go the trust route, it can take 6 months.

Once you get your paperwork, head back to the title II dealer and purchase your gun. You are required to keep the ATF application with tax stamp with the gun at all times (color copy). Only the people listed on the trust can be in possession of the firearm. In otherwords, if you dont have a trust and the gun is registered in your name only, you cannot loan the gun to friend or family. With a trust, anyone listed on the trust can be in possession of the firearm.

This WEB site is a valuable resource: http://www.titleii.com/

Here is a link to the NFA forum at The Firing Line... another good resource:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Also, keep in mind that all other gun laws apply. If you get your approved paperwork back from the ATF in the name of your trust BUT you are not personally allowed to be in possession of a firearm (felony conviction or something else), you will be in violation of the law if in possession of the gun.
For NFA firearms, there are also other restrictions / requirements. If you want to sell your NFA firearm, you cannot just do so like a pistol at a gun show. The NFA firearm must be transfered according to law.
You cannot cross a state line with your NFA firearm without prior ATF notification / approval.
NFA firearms in some states might not be legal, at all. So, before taking that job transfer, check the laws, sell or store the gun in a safe deposit box in the state where you bought it.

Something I forgot to mention is that purchasing through a title ii dealer requires ATF form #4 (transfer).

If you cannot find a title ii dealer in your area, you have another option especially if the SBR you want is an AR15. Here are the steps for manufacturing your own AR15 SBR:

1. Form your trust

2. Purchase a stripped AR15 lower receiver from Anvil Arms. They are currently $100 which is the cheapest I have seen for a lower. I hear GunStop has DPMS for $129. If you dont know, all lowers are manufactured by a very small handfull of machine shops.

3. Tell Anvil Arms that you plan to SBR the lower that you are purchasing from them and ask them to engrave the lower with the name of your trust, city, state and the serial number you are issuing for the SBR. This is important because the ATF requires that a manufactured SBR have the manufacturers marking and the engraving has to be to ATF spec. Anvil is a title ii / class iii dealer so they should know how to do this properly. Just tell them it is for am SBR.

4. At this point the lower is still a rifle. It doenst matter what is engraved on it. So, Anvil will transfer the rifle to your local FFL where you can pick it up. If you live in the area, Burnsville Pistol Range does $20 transfers. Here is Rogers FFL that you can supply to Anvil: http://www.bvpistol.com/ffl.htm (send Roger an email giving him a heads-up)

5. So now you might be wondering why you would engrave before getting the approval back from ATF?? The reason is, there are restrictions on who can be in possession of the SBR. Engrave first and you dont have to worry about it.

6. Complete ATF form #1 using your trust name and the information you had engraved on your lower. Send the paperwork to ATF with the $200 tax

7. Wait for the approval. While waiting, get the lower parts kit ($69) and a six position stock ($69) if that is what you want. You can get step-by-step instructions here and just so you know, building out the lower is so easy a monkey could do it (I have done 4 myself). IMO, buy the upper fully built. There is a lot going on with building the upper and special tools are needed. Plus, all the accuracy is in the upper...

8. When your paperwork comes back approved, you can now go online and buy your 11" upper from your favorite manufacturer. By the way, only the stripped lower has to be purchased from an FFL. The upper and other parts can be shipped direct to your home.

9. If for some reason the ATF does not approve your SBR application, repeat step #8 and replace the 11" with a 16" and you'll have a nice rifle anyway.

Thank you very much for the information. It has been very informative.

It shouldn't be this complex.

Don't fret, Obama will fix it after he saves the world

Good information there tepin.

I was able to get the Police Chief to sign off on mine here. I did a 7" DPMS Kitty Kat upper on mine.

For engraving I went with Orion Arms.

Are you free to switch uppers at will on a lower that is registered as SBR?

My understanding is "Yes". You can put a 20" heavy on your SBR to pop prairie poodles...

Good data!

Stock up on stripped AR lowers. The stripped lower is the only part of the AR that needs to be purchased from an FFL. As long as the military keeps using the AR, getting uppers and parts in the future shouldnt be a problem (for lowers purchased before 01/21/2009.

I think that is "fix it before he saves the world". How can be possible force his will... err save the world will all of those evil firearms (SBRs first!) running around killing people all on their own. Think of the children!

The question that I have is whether this whole exercise has a point. Are the extra 2 inches off the end of the barrel really worth $200 and a pile of paperwork? Do they make a realistic difference in performance of the rifle?

I can see it for the happy switch, which, if I understand correctly, we can't have in MN, unless it's on a "collector's item". But for an SBR?

If it is a 11.5" barrel I can understand. Doing it for a 14" I am in the same boat as you.

Same thing with a 16.6" SBS vs the 18.5".