Index  •  FAQ  •  Search  

It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:02 am

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
 Police report: Gun free zones equal killing fields 
Author Message
 Post subject: Police report: Gun free zones equal killing fields
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:05 pm 
Wise Elder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:48 pm
Posts: 2782
Location: St. Paul
When Seconds Count: Stopping Active Killers

Reported by: Brendan Keefe
Email: Brendan.Keefe@wcpo.com
Last Update: 11/14 1:22 am

There have been so many school shootings over the last 40 years that researchers have been able to develop a profile of the typical mass murderer. They're called "active shooters" or "active killers" and their crimes play out in a matter of minutes.

After the Columbine High School massacre in 1999, police changed their tactics.

The two student gunmen killed 15 people and themselves before the SWAT team was in position.

Commanders realized that it simply takes too long to assemble a tactical team in time to stop an active killer.

The new tactics developed in response to Columbine involved creating an ad-hoc tactical team using the first four or five patrol officers on the scene.

They would enter the shooting scene in a diamond formation with guns pointing in all directions.

This technique was employed by police departments around the country.

Then 32 people were killed by a lone gunman at Virginia Tech in April 2007.

Seung Hui Cho shot 47 people, 30 fatally, in the university's Norris Hall in just 11 minutes.

That means every minute he killed more than three people and shot a total of four.

Once again, the gunman continued shooting until a four-officer team made entry and then he killed himself.

Law enforcement reviewed its tactics.

Based on the Virginia Tech data, experts determined the first officer [or other armed defender] on scene should make entry immediately with an aggressive attack on the shooter.

Every minute the [defender] waits for back-up, another three or more people could die.

In other words, while it was once considered suicide for a lone [defender] to take on an active killer, it is now considered statistical homicide for him not to do so.


Tactical Defense Institute in Adams County, Ohio developed one of the first "single officer response" programs in the nation.

TDI was teaching the tactic even before Virginia Tech. Now the National School Resource Officer Organization (NSRO) is using TDI instructors to teach school resource officers how to confront a gunman immediately.

Locally, all Blue Ash police officers are trained in these new tactics in large part because their chief, Col. Chris Wallace, is also a TDI instructor.

The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they almost exclusively seek out "gun free" zones for their attacks.

In most states, concealed handguns are prohibited at schools and on college campuses even for those with permits.

Many malls and workplaces also place signs at their entrances prohibiting firearms on the premises.

Now tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the active killers.

The psychological profile of a mass murderer indicates he is looking to inflict the most casualties as quickly as possible.

Also, the data show most active killers have no intention of surviving the event.

They may select schools and shopping malls because of the large number of defenseless victims and the virtual guarantee no on the scene one is armed.

As soon as they're confronted by any armed resistance, the shooters typically turn the gun on themselves.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story.as ... 7534a6de3c


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:27 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:53 am
Posts: 1263
Location: MN
Completely astonishing. Not that these are the facts, but that someone was willing to write and publish the story.

_________________
Image
Image courtesy of Right Wing Swag


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Police report: Gun free zones equal killing fields
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:38 pm 
Poet Laureate
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:36 am
Posts: 760
Location: Hutchinson, MN
Quote:
The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they almost exclusively seek out "gun free" zones for their attacks.

Now tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the active killers.

They may select schools and shopping malls because of the large number of defenseless victims and the virtual guarantee no on the scene one is armed.


You can't be serious.
They are just now figuring this out?

Someone get me an application for a job as one of these bright-light tacticians. I want to apply for retroactive pay back to the day when I was old enough to join the boy scouts, and came to the exact same conclusion.

Are you kidding me? NOW tacticians believe this? Was it worth all those lives up to and including today's date for these people to finally get their epiphany?? :evil: :evil:

Please excuse my passion. This type of thing really burns me up.

_________________
It's not always easy these days to tell which of our two major political parties is the Stupid Party and which is the Evil Party...
But it remains true that from time to time they collaborate on something that's both stupid and evil and call it bipartisanship. -Thomas E. Woods Jr.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Police report: Gun free zones equal killing fields
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:01 pm 
Wise Elder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:48 pm
Posts: 2782
Location: St. Paul
Carbide Insert wrote:
Are you kidding me? NOW tacticians believe this? Was it worth all those lives up to and including today's date for these people to finally get their epiphany?? :evil: :evil:


Yes. At the Say Yesidro, California McDanalds massacre, the SWAT team (on the scene) waited 45 minutes while they observed the killer shooting people, until their "Commander" could "rush" to the scene, make a decision, and give his personal order to go in.

I s**t you not.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:29 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:53 am
Posts: 1263
Location: MN
It appears that at least some SWAT teams don't teach (or screen for) independent thought and common sense. The San Ysidro McDonald's massacre resulted in 22 dead (one of them the murderer) and 19 injured. But the police have no obligation to stop a crime in progress. Yet another reason... Let's sing hymn 1911 as our closing song.

_________________
Image
Image courtesy of Right Wing Swag


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:29 pm 
Longtime Regular

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:54 am
Posts: 2444
Location: West Central MN
Our local officers say the current plan A for a school shooting is for police to immediately go in with rifles, and kill the gunmen on sight, as opposed to surrounding and trying to negotiate.

There's probably no right answer, but this seems nost reasonable I think. Stuff's changing.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:59 pm 
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 4:05 pm
Posts: 312
Location: SE Metro
You're preaching to choir here Joe, as I'm sure you may already be aware.

The information is interesting and useful, however.

The anti does not care about facts such as this.

The anti will reason that if no one owned guns (or guns were otherwise not available) the "active shooter" or any shooter would not exist.

This has not been an "Armed Teacher" debate and never will be; it will always be a "guns in school" where our precious snowflakes spend their days debate.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:20 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:53 am
Posts: 1263
Location: MN
Dave, some of the antis can be convinced by fact and reasoned argument. My mother was one. Now she scoffs at the very rhetoric she used to embrace... and can point out the logical flaws in it. Better, she has her own gun. :D

Don't write them all off. There are those who can be converted.

_________________
Image
Image courtesy of Right Wing Swag


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:36 pm 
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:59 am
Posts: 300
Location: Near Hwy 101 & Cty Rd 5
Tick Slayer wrote:
Completely astonishing. Not that these are the facts, but that someone was willing to write and publish the story.


Even better Tick... it was W liberal O here locally.

Tick Slayer wrote:
Don't write them all off. There are those who can be converted.


Even just 1 at a time. Hmmm, where have I heard that before?


MM


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:42 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:53 am
Posts: 1263
Location: MN
a911scanner wrote:
quote="Tick Slayer"]Don't write them all off. There are those who can be converted.


Even just 1 at a time. Hmmm, where have I heard that before?


Quote:
MM


:?: Um. Enlighten me?

_________________
Image
Image courtesy of Right Wing Swag


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:39 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:08 pm
Posts: 546
Location: Roseville
Dick Unger wrote:
Our local officers say the current plan A for a school shooting is for police to immediately go in with rifles, and kill the gunmen on sight, as opposed to surrounding and trying to negotiate.

Does it apply to places other than schools? Malls for instance. It sounds like a very good reason to not be standing around with a gun in your hands (or anywhere near someone with a gun) when our buddies in blue show up with the bullet hoses....

_________________
You can't save the Earth unless you're willing to make other people sacrifice. ~Dogbert~


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:51 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:13 pm
Posts: 1743
Location: Lakeville
ironbear wrote:
...It sounds like a very good reason to not be standing around with a gun in your hands (or anywhere near someone with a gun) when our buddies in blue show up...

Yea, I'd say it is always a good idea to appear non-threatening to police officers.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:13 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:32 am
Posts: 515
Location: Metro Area - Apple Valley
Of course this revelation will do nothing to allow we carry permit holders the ability to go armed in a gun free zone. They will still find some lame excuse to prohibit us.

_________________
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONTESTING THE VOTE.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:45 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:24 am
Posts: 6767
Location: Twin Cities
a911scanner wrote:
Even better Tick... it was W liberal O here locally.

If only! The above story came from WCPO in Cincinnati.

_________________
* NRA, UT, MADFI certified Minnesota Permit to Carry instructor, and one of 66,513 law-abiding permit holders. Read my blog.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:11 pm 
Longtime Regular

Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:06 pm
Posts: 666
Location: St Cloud
Dang right. Go to the link and watch the video as well. I'm going to have to rip that video.

_________________
Try not. Do or do not, but do not try. - Yoda
Never give up. Never, never, never. - Churchill
Stand on the shoulders of your giant.


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours


 Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 38 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


 
Index  |  FAQ  |  Search

phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group