Police report: Gun free zones equal killing fields
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chunkstyle
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:24 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:28 pm Posts: 2362 Location: Uptown Minneapolis
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AGoodDay wrote: I'm going to have to rip that video.
Could you do that, and send me a copy?
_________________ "The right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." - Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960
"Man has the right to deal with his oppressors by devouring their palpitating hearts." - Jean-Paul Marat
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ree
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:59 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:55 pm Posts: 742 Location: Twin Cities
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I contacted the author Brendan Keefe to get a little background. One of the pieces he referred me to was this one from May of this year on "active killer" responses. It's not going to be a mind changer, but it certainly helps when discussing the topic with naysayers who say, "just because a biased news anchor said so doesn't make it so."
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AGoodDay
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:03 pm |
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Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:06 pm Posts: 666 Location: St Cloud
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chunkstyle wrote: AGoodDay wrote: I'm going to have to rip that video. Could you do that, and send me a copy?
Of course.
_________________ Try not. Do or do not, but do not try. - Yoda
Never give up. Never, never, never. - Churchill
Stand on the shoulders of your giant.
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princewally
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:28 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:02 am Posts: 1684 Location: St Louis Park
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AGoodDay wrote: chunkstyle wrote: AGoodDay wrote: I'm going to have to rip that video. Could you do that, and send me a copy? Of course.
http://www.metrodefense.com/files/
_________________ Of the people, By the People, For the People. The government exists to serve us, not the reverse.
-------------------- Next MN carry permit class: TBD.
Permit to Carry MN --------------------
jason <at> metrodefense <dot> com
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AGoodDay
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:16 pm |
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Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:06 pm Posts: 666 Location: St Cloud
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princewally wrote: AGoodDay wrote: chunkstyle wrote: AGoodDay wrote: I'm going to have to rip that video. Could you do that, and send me a copy? Of course. http://www.metrodefense.com/files/
Correction. Of course not.
Thanks princewally. Beat me to it.
_________________ Try not. Do or do not, but do not try. - Yoda
Never give up. Never, never, never. - Churchill
Stand on the shoulders of your giant.
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chunkstyle
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:13 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:28 pm Posts: 2362 Location: Uptown Minneapolis
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Thanks.
_________________ "The right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." - Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960
"Man has the right to deal with his oppressors by devouring their palpitating hearts." - Jean-Paul Marat
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a911scanner
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:54 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:59 am Posts: 300 Location: Near Hwy 101 & Cty Rd 5
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Andrew Rothman wrote: a911scanner wrote: Even better Tick... it was W liberal O here locally. If only! The above story came from WC PO in Cincinnati.
My mistake. Old eyes. That's why I need a scope on my Model 21 "Bobcat"
MM
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a911scanner
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:58 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:59 am Posts: 300 Location: Near Hwy 101 & Cty Rd 5
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Tick Slayer wrote: Um. Enlighten me?
Anybody that believes in "converts"
Christianity, KKK, Al-queda just to name a few.
MM
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sigdoc
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:17 am |
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Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:21 pm Posts: 33
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Tick Slayer wrote: The San Ysidro McDonald's massacre resulted in 22 dead (one of them the murderer) and 19 injured.
I think when we talk about the numbers killed by these murderers we should not include the murderer in the total number. In the above example there were "21 murdered", not "22 killed/dead". Just a pet peeve of mine. Nevermind.
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Dick Unger
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:57 am |
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:54 am Posts: 2444 Location: West Central MN
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SultanOfBrunei wrote: ironbear wrote: ...It sounds like a very good reason to not be standing around with a gun in your hands (or anywhere near someone with a gun) when our buddies in blue show up... Yea, I'd say it is always a good idea to appear non-threatening to police officers.
I recently was a volunteer actor at a police training session. We were in a house, and the officer or officers would respond to a call. We all had "guns", Glocks that shoot something like a paintball. The actors did a different skit each time. They videoed it, and officers had to respond normally, obey the law, protect themselves and each other. It might be a noise complaint, or domestic or simply bad information from dispatch. But they didn't have much time to sort things out, and they were always outnumbered by the actors, who might be good guys, bad guys, idiots, smart asses, whatever.
They were trained that it is legal for civilians to have guns. (I think this is a fairly new thing, based on reaction of older officers.) . They were to look for the guns, and often DIDN"T see the guns, even though it was billed as "gunfighter training" (a misnomer I thought, it was mostly law and tactics, very little shooting).
Having a gun when police arrive, beside being dangerous to your continued existance, causes police to focus on YOU and not the perps. They are supposed to account for everybody they see. It's kind of basic that they don't want an armed and unknown person standing behind them if there is a gun fight. If they have to have someone attend to you, they'll be a man short. Don't be 'that guy", I think.
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Carbide Insert
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:48 am |
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Poet Laureate |
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Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:36 am Posts: 760 Location: Hutchinson, MN
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Dick Unger wrote: They were trained that it is legal for civilians to have guns.
That's good, and all, seeing as how officers are civilians, just like everyone who isn't an enlisted man...
Pet peeve of mine.
_________________ It's not always easy these days to tell which of our two major political parties is the Stupid Party and which is the Evil Party...
But it remains true that from time to time they collaborate on something that's both stupid and evil and call it bipartisanship. -Thomas E. Woods Jr.
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Dick Unger
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:06 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:54 am Posts: 2444 Location: West Central MN
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Carbide Insert wrote: Dick Unger wrote: They were trained that it is legal for civilians to have guns. That's good, and all, seeing as how officers are civilians, just like everyone who isn't an enlisted man... Pet peeve of mine.
"Civilian" is my term. The trainer called us "people". I agree it is not really right to have "officers", and "civilians".
Next time I'll try to be "politically correct"
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AGoodDay
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:47 am |
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Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:06 pm Posts: 666 Location: St Cloud
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I wanted to point back to the linked article. The reporter updated the article. Apparently they received a lot of requests for proof of the assertion that most mass shootings happen in gun free zones. The reporter researched 40 years of mass shootings and said in the article that "we are able to say definitively that most "active killer" shootings have occurred in so-called "gun free" zones."
Thought you all might like to read the update.
_________________ Try not. Do or do not, but do not try. - Yoda
Never give up. Never, never, never. - Churchill
Stand on the shoulders of your giant.
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Lenny7
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:30 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:09 am Posts: 1060 Location: Savage, MN
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AGoodDay wrote: Thought you all might like to read the update.
Thanks!
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PocketProtector642
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Post subject: the update Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:55 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:36 am Posts: 702 Location: St. Paulish
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Quote: (UPDATE 11/21/08 by Anchor/Reporter Brendan Keefe): We have received many requests about the source for our assertion that most mass murders have occurred in otherwise "gun free" zones. The experts are Ron Borsch from SEALE Academy in Bedford, Ohio and John Benner from Tactical Defense Institute. A summary of Borsch's study can be found here We also conducted our own analysis of mass murders in the U.S. The vast majority occurred in schools or on college campuses where firearms are banned as a matter of state statutes. Others took place in post offices where firearms are banned as a matter of federal law. Most of the rest took place in shopping malls or other businesses where the owners posted signs prohibiting firearm possession by anyone including those with CCW permits. In some states, like Ohio, those signs have the force of law and violators are prosecuted under the relevant statute. In other states, like Texas, the signs are considered trespass notices and violators are first asked to leave, then they are arrested for trespass if they decline (of course, if your weapon is visible, it's no longer concealed and there are other potential legal consequences). Based on data from the SEALE study, an analysis by TDI, and our own painstaking research, we are able to say definitively that most "active killer" shootings have occurred in so-called "gun free" zones. The experts who say they may be "invitations" are also John Benner and Ron Borsch who have six decades of law enforcement experience and training between them. The Luby's Cafeteria shooting in Killeen, TX in 1991 took place before Texas adopted its Florida-style CCW law. In fact, that mass murder of 23 people was used as an example by those seeking to enact the CCW legislation. It is accurate to say firearms were banned in Luby's at that time because there was no uniform concealed carry law in place in 1991. In fact, several victims and survivors had legally owned handguns in their cars at the time of the shooting. While that shooting was not addressed in our story, it and others over the last 40 years were analyzed in our investigation. As journalists, we are not interested in entering into the heated debate over gun control. We are, however, interested in reporting the facts. In this story, the facts point to the active shooters ignoring gun prohibitions and perhaps selecting those locations because they are "soft targets" where no resistance would be found.
_________________ Proud owner of 2 wonderful SGH holsters. "If man will not work, he shall not eat" (2 Th 3:14) "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" -Jesus (Luke 22:36)
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