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 Why the signs came down 
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 Post subject: Why the signs came down
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:28 pm 
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I apologize if there is already a thread on this somewhere, but my search-fu was not good enough to find anything.

I think it would be instructive to discuss the reasons why the signs came down. Recall that there was a short period, about five years ago, when a substantial number of businesses were posted.

Some of the signs (especially those that are not lawful) have come down because of the hard work of people on these boards.

But the most prominent ones have come down because the business establishments didn't want to have their customers thinking about guns when they walked in the door. They want their customers in a buying mood, and the signs worked against that.


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 Post subject: Re: Why the signs came down
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:42 pm 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:
Recall that there was a short period, about five years ago, when a substantial number of businesses were posted.


Not to pick nits, but it was never a substantial percentage of businesses. I don't believe it ever exceeded one or two percent.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:26 pm 
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And many of those that did were surprised then to get phone calls or visits from long term customers who said, "its your choice, your sign or my money" Most of those places have dropped the signs.

Education is the Key. Many of the people signing their building have no idea of the impact it has on those of us who carry or support carry. Teaching them works.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:08 am 
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Don't know why these discussions keep popping up, the signs are completely irrelevant. They don't even have to be posted, if they see you with your gun they can ask you to leave if that is what they want to do.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:46 pm 
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Back in the day I used to get my dander up pretty good about the signs. Anytime I'd buy anything substantial, the first thing I'd do when I got home is photocopy the receipts and send them along to competing stores who "ban guns", with an explanation as to why I could not shop in their store.

Good times.

At this point, if they cared about customers more than personal politics the sign would have been gone long ago. Whenever you see a sign, you know that the business owner is distant, aloof, and disconnected from his local sales managers and customers. A public library, for instance.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:27 pm 
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The OP's question (statements) are different than any other question about signs has been.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:43 pm 
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Fugitive74 wrote:
Don't know why these discussions keep popping up, the signs are completely irrelevant. They don't even have to be posted, if they see you with your gun they can ask you to leave if that is what they want to do.

I fully disagree they are relevant, they tell those of us who exercise our rights, that they are not wanted in their oppressive establishment. We all understand what you are saying, but for some of us, we speak with our money too.

It's already cost some local stores around me thousands of dollars and they seem to care not.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:13 am 
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MNXD9 wrote:
Fugitive74 wrote:
Don't know why these discussions keep popping up, the signs are completely irrelevant. They don't even have to be posted, if they see you with your gun they can ask you to leave if that is what they want to do.

I fully disagree they are relevant, they tell those of us who exercise our rights, that they are not wanted in their oppressive establishment. We all understand what you are saying, but for some of us, we speak with our money too.

It's already cost some local stores around me thousands of dollars and they seem to care not.


Or, they do care and like you, have chosen to make a statement of their own. Know your target, Hank.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:29 pm 
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The signs, both their presence and their absence, are important for a number of reasons despite the fact that they have little legal effect.

1) The signs, to some degree, help keep the issue of carry alive in the minds of anti-gun people.

2) The law may change at some future point such that violating a posting carries greater consequences. Businesses that have already decided not to post once such a change occurs are less likely to start.

3) Carrying in a posted establishment and getting caught may be problematic in the court of public opinion for some people who carry, even if no charges result. "Kindergarten teacher found carrying a >gasp< loaded handgun at Toys-backwards R-Us despite signs prohibiting weapons." The strib would have a field day.

4) In the same fashion such incidents have the potential to reflect negatively on the carry community as a whole


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:49 am 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:
1) The signs, to some degree, help keep the issue of carry alive in the minds of anti-gun people.

...as well as remind newcomers and new adults that there is a right to carry, and a way to exercise it. It works both ways.

Quote:
2) The law may change at some future point such that violating a posting carries greater consequences. Businesses that have already decided not to post once such a change occurs are less likely to start.

That's a good point!

Quote:
3) Carrying in a posted establishment and getting caught may be problematic in the court of public opinion for some people who carry, even if no charges result. "Kindergarten teacher found carrying a >gasp< loaded handgun at Toys-backwards R-Us despite signs prohibiting weapons." The strib would have a field day.


Theoretically, although you have to stretch to think of a situation where the news could be legally released. First, you'd have to get caught. Then, if the toy store says leave, you leave. No ID, no press.

If we imagine that a panicky manager instead calls the cops, once they establish that you are carrying on a permit, they have to let you go, and your permit status is STILL private data under Minnesota statute. With no arrest, they can't release your name.

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4) In the same fashion such incidents have the potential to reflect negatively on the carry community as a whole


See above. There's a reason that the signs have been a non-issue: the law was written to make them so. Thanks, Joe!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:04 am 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
MostlyHarmless wrote:

3) Carrying in a posted establishment and getting caught may be problematic in the court of public opinion for some people who carry, even if no charges result. "Kindergarten teacher found carrying a >gasp< loaded handgun at Toys-backwards R-Us despite signs prohibiting weapons." The strib would have a field day.


Theoretically, although you have to stretch to think of a situation where the news could be legally released. First, you'd have to get caught. Then, if the toy store says leave, you leave. No ID, no press.

If we imagine that a panicky manager instead calls the cops, once they establish that you are carrying on a permit, they have to let you go, and your permit status is STILL private data under Minnesota statute. With no arrest, they can't release your name.


All true enough for a relatively anonymous person.

To continue with your example, if the panicky manager or someone else present recognizes the permit holder, there is nothing to prevent them from releasing that information to the media. They can say, "I saw John Doe come in here, carrying a revolver even though we have signs up, and called the cops, who came and said they couldn't do anything but that I could ask Mr. Doe to leave if I wanted."

It is also possible for the news media to show up uninvited. Some of them listen to scanners, and in the sorts of places where three-legged mules in the county road right-of-way make the news, they might come out for something like that.

This sort of thing is a problem for the large minority of people who are recognized by many even though they are not a celebrity. Doctors, teachers, school principals, coaches, clergy, holders of minor political office, certain well-known local businesspeople.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:43 pm 
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True enough. For those people, it's either don't carry there, conceal well, or face the possible consequences.

Of course, the places where the events you forecast above could occur would hardly be the places that would listen to reason and take down the signs. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:59 pm 
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Exactly.

However, what they have listened to (I suspect), by and large, is their own buyers and marketing people, the people who want customers to be in a "buying mood" and who go to great lengths to be sure that the music, lighting, store layout, decor, and so on are conducive to that.

There was a post on another forum (out of state) about a specific example of this at some regional chain (IIRC).

I bring this up because I think it is important to us strategically to remember what works and what the root causes are. Maybe the no guns=no $ cards work with the smaller, independently owned places. But large corporate interests don't pay much attention to them, IMO, to the point where it is unlikely that the message will reach a decisionmaker who actually has the authority or influence to do something about the signs.

The fact that a compliant sign is big, ugly, prominent, and requires wording that blames the business (xxx bans guns rather than "firearms prohibited") in people's minds are part of this.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:38 pm 
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Quote:
The fact that a compliant sign is big, ugly, prominent, and requires wording that blames the business (xxx bans guns rather than "firearms prohibited") in people's minds are part of this.

To which I agree. And after a few years, carry became a non-issue.

Why put up a sign about a non-issue?


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 Post subject: Re: Why the signs came down
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:43 pm 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:

But the most prominent ones have come down because the business establishments didn't want to have their customers thinking about guns when they walked in the door. They want their customers in a buying mood, and the signs worked against that.


I will have to agree with you here and all the others!

The way I see it is that these signs are invites for potential threats saying "theres no one in here with a gun so lets go ahead a rob it".

If the business owners don't feel comfortable with someone in their store carrying all they have to do is ask you to leave, enought said! Posting signs is misleading and distracts the customers of their first intention to spend money at the store, and not to think about guns in the store!

With that said I also wanted to ask a question about the signs.
Who is the one that can legally post the sign outside the store?
Do the legal signs have to be in a specific print, size, color etc.?
I heard that the landlords are not legally allowed to post signs in front of the stores, any suggestions?

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