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CustomEclipseII
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Post subject: Refusal to Process  Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:54 pm |
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:04 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Plymouth, Minnesota
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Last edited by CustomEclipseII on Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Andrew Rothman
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Post subject: Re: Refusal to Process Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:21 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:24 am
Posts: 6767
Location: Twin Cities
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CustomEclipseII wrote: I don't need lawyer recommendations or legal advice (got pleanty of that already), just ideas and arguments both ways. You're wrong. If you are soliciting this info from non-lawyers, you don't have the right lawyer or legal advice. 
_________________
* NRA, UT, MADFI certified Minnesota Permit to Carry instructor, and one of 66,513 law-abiding permit holders. Read my blog.
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Lawyer_in_Training
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Post subject: Re: Refusal to Process Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:41 pm |
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Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:22 pm
Posts: 339
Location: Suburban Twin Cities, MN
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Andrew Rothman wrote: CustomEclipseII wrote: I don't need lawyer recommendations or legal advice (got pleanty of that already), just ideas and arguments both ways. You're wrong. If you are soliciting this info from non-lawyers, you don't have the right lawyer or legal advice. +1
I presume there's a reason the sheriff is asking for more information. Unless you tell us what he wants it's rather difficult to suggest reasons/arguments to support your cause, at least under MN law.
If you want to make use of subd. 12 you better have a lawyer.
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Macx
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:07 am |
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:37 pm
Posts: 1757
Location: Whittier
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For clarity - Is the sherriff:
A. refusing to deny you
B. refusing to issue a permit
C. refusing to answer
D. asking a question the answer to which could exclude you from a permit.
E. asking a question the answer to which could not exclude you from a permit.
F. asking you to incriminate yourself
_________________
Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a
lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become
a law unto himself; it invites anarchy .” Olmstead v. U.S., 277 U.S. 438
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MNBud
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:42 am |
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:01 am
Posts: 586
Location: west suburb
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Wow--- this one could get spicy 
_________________
Just because you know your paranoid doesn't mean somebody's not out to get you.
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CustomEclipseII
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Post subject: Re: Refusal to Process Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:09 am |
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:04 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Plymouth, Minnesota
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Post Deleted
Last edited by CustomEclipseII on Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DeanC
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Post subject: Re: Refusal to Process Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:18 am |
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am
Posts: 5270
Location: Minneapolis
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CustomEclipseII wrote: How would you get your permit card from the sheriff? I am not a legal technician. I would call a lawyer. CustomEclipseII wrote: If you were the sheriff, what would you say? I am not going to give this guy a permit until a judge says I have to. CustomEclipseII wrote: If you were the applicant, what would you say? Where did I put that lawyer's phone number?
_________________
I am defending myself... in favor of that!
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CustomEclipseII
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Post subject: Re: Refusal to Process Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:31 am |
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:04 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Plymouth, Minnesota
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Post Deleted
Last edited by CustomEclipseII on Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CustomEclipseII
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:49 am |
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:04 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Plymouth, Minnesota
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Last edited by CustomEclipseII on Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ronin069
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:50 am |
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Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:16 pm
Posts: 340
Location: Brooklyn Park
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CustomEclipseII,
Hmmm....perhaps it is because I just came back from an unnecessarilly long trip to Denver and ND - so maybe my forum-fu is off a bit, but the tone of your post seems a tad confrontational for a newer member. Especially one that comes here seeking a bit of advice/thoughts.
The blatent disrespect you have shown to date is unfortunate - had I been the sheriff that you interacted with I too may have been tempted to take you through whatever ringer you are currently be put through.
Start by removing the chip from your shoulder - you will be amazed at how much further you get.
...we seem to be a forgiving bunch here, you would be amazed at how far you get with a simple please and thank you.
_________________
"The gun chooses you, you don't choose the gun"
- my wife
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CustomEclipseII
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:01 am |
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:04 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Plymouth, Minnesota
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Post Deleted
Last edited by CustomEclipseII on Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lawyer_in_Training
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:22 am |
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Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:22 pm
Posts: 339
Location: Suburban Twin Cities, MN
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See wasn't that easy. The sheriff is refusing to issue/deny your application because he wants your SSN. You're refusing to provide your SSN. Now what? You need to get your lawyer to slap the sheriff's hand and remind him of the law. You likely won't accomplish this on your own.
Quote: How would you get your permit card from the sheriff? 1. Find a good gun lawyer. 2. Talk to your lawyer 3. Wait. Quote: whether people think a failure to "further process" an application ... is the same as being "aggrieved by a denial." Probably, but what people "think" is irrelevant. Quote: If you were the sheriff, what would you say? DENIED! Quote: If you were the applicant, what would you say? "Where did I put that lawyer's phone number?"
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Macx
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:11 am |
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:37 pm
Posts: 1757
Location: Whittier
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Quote: 624.714 Subd. 4 (a) .. . . The sheriff shall also make a reasonable effort to check other available and relevant federal, state, or local record-keeping systems. . . . . The bolded text is mine. Sheriff is obligated by law to do what he/she feels is a reasonable check. Pursuant to that duty, the sheriff is asking for what he feels he needs to do that. In my home state, there was a deputy two towns over that had the same first and last name & I think he even had the same middle initial though the name itself was different. He was a good guy by all accounts and a fair bit handsomer than me. But what if he wasn't? What if he was a meth lab opperating skeeze? I'd want the sheriff to identify which Macx x Macx's background to be checked. I certainly wouldn't want to be denied over somebody else's records. My guess based on the info you have provided so far, is that the sheriff got ahold of your home state and they said, "which CustomEclipseII's records would you like me to check" . . .. It is the same deal as the ATF form 4473's box 7 -
In your sheriff's case, he/she is feeling like they need box 7 filled in to make a proper judgement.
You can either fill out box 7 (figuratively speaking) and the sheriff will feel he has done due diligence or you can be a test case. If you choose to be a test case, we'd prefer you to win. Every loss by a gun owner is a loss for us all & without a lawyer . . .. you will not win this test case.
_________________
Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a
lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become
a law unto himself; it invites anarchy .” Olmstead v. U.S., 277 U.S. 438
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phorvick
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:13 pm |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:37 pm
Posts: 1571
Location: Detroit Lakes, MN
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CustomEclipseII wrote: ronin069 wrote: CustomEclipseII,
Hmmm....perhaps it is because I just came back from an unnecessarilly long trip to Denver and ND - so maybe my forum-fu is off a bit, but the tone of your post seems a tad confrontational for a newer member. Especially one that comes here seeking a bit of advice/thoughts.
The blatent disrespect you have shown to date is unfortunate - had I been the sheriff that you interacted with I too may have been tempted to take you through whatever ringer you are currently be put through.
Start by removing the chip from your shoulder - you will be amazed at how much further you get.
...we seem to be a forgiving bunch here, you would be amazed at how far you get with a simple please and thank you. I have read this forum for years. I finally decided to share my thoughts because I thought people might find them interesting and fun to talk about. Instead: I have been told I am wrong. I have been told I am wrong +1. And now I have been told that I am "blatently disrespectful," and that I need to remove the "chip from my shoulder." Perhaps my personality is too direct and to the point for internet forums. Hmm...I don't read it quite that way. I read it as you are not happy with the comment to get a lawyer. Seems pretty clear. There is nothing you can do to persuade the permit to be issued w/o complying.....or...getting a lawyer to take appropriate legal steps.
If you are not happy with the suggestion "get a lawyer", then I shall change it to "take appropriate legal steps either with a lawyer of your choice, or pro se."
If you are looking for a debate on the nuances of mandamus, this is the wrong forum.
_________________
Paul Horvick
http://shootingsafely.com
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Contact us to schedule a class for you and your friends, and check our website for more information http://shootingsafely.com
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Macx
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:25 pm |
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| Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:37 pm
Posts: 1757
Location: Whittier
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The following is a Rant but it bears saying:
As a side note, I don't like that the 4473 has question 8, without an option for "other, please specify" . . . I am a Celt and it grates on me and feels demeaning to check the "white" box. An Oromo or Somali shouldn't have to check "black or African American". A Hmong shouldn't have to check "Asian". I tend to think that there should either be no "race" question or all races should be represented even if they had to add a page to the form. If race matters, it matters enough to be specific. If race doesn't matter, they should clean it off their goll darn form. But that is me and my little quirk.
I still check "white" on the 4473. I want to make my purchase and I don't have the money to be a test case . . . . you know that the Gun Dealer sure isn't going to put his FFL & whatever else on the line for me to make my statement about racial equity. So I man up and fill out my 4473's and go home with my new guns.
End Rant
Your options are: Give Sheriff your SS#, get a lawyer (or if you have one put them to work), or abandon the pursuit of permit. Those are the three choices and I don't believe there are more at this buffet.
_________________
Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a
lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become
a law unto himself; it invites anarchy .” Olmstead v. U.S., 277 U.S. 438
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