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Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - Sheriffs and required documents
 
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 Sheriffs and required documents 
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:52 am 
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I won't add much to the .22 debate, as my position is well known to anyone that remotely cared.

I just would reiterate that it is, in my opinion, NOT my job to add additional restrictions/qualifications etc. to the law as to who is eligible to apply. By arbitrarily requiring caliber X or above, or a score of XX% on a range exercise, while a good handgun caliber choice and a good skill set to have, may end up also denying someone a permit by artificially increasing the demands over and above the State.

I see some real interesting mental exercises being done by some instructors. They (heck we...me too!) get all bent out of shape if the Sheriff requires something...anything...that the law does not mandate. How many times have there been threads that berate Sheriff's or take them to task for something as minimalist as asking to see the original certificate to verify the authenticity of the copy? Why, there is outrage expressed at the Sheriff exceeding their authority simply because they made a logical interpretation that the statutory language that says the applicant need "only" submit an accurate photocopy of the certificate would include the applicant demonstrating it is an accurate photocopy by also presenting the original for comparison.

Yet, I agree 100% that such a requirement exceeds their statutory authority and could, at the least inconvenience or delay the issuance of the permit, or in an outrageous situation, keep one from obtaining a permit.

But, instructors do not seem to get at all concerned if we put up the artificial barrier. Hey, I am sorry Ethel, you cannot protect yourself because you refuse to shoot anything bigger than a .22, and besides, you scored just 74% and I require 75%. I find that, well, interesting. (And please, refrain here for talking about remediation...of course we all want to help people improve....I am just saying that placing additional artificial requirements, when there is no evidence anywhere...none...nil...nada...that they make any whitt of difference in personal or public safety is not something I am willing to do.)

I agree 100% that marksmanship is a hugely desired attribute; I agree 100% that a .22 is not the optimum self-defense round (and of course will discuss that in class); but....I just don't see that as something that I should decide for others (caliber), nor mandate any artificial score at stationary paper targets.

Others disagree. I guess that is what makes life interesting.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:20 am 
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phorvick wrote:
How many times have there been threads that berate Sheriff's or take them to task for something as minimalist as asking to see the original certificate to verify the authenticity of the copy? Why, there is outrage expressed at the Sheriff exceeding their authority simply because they made a logical interpretation that the statutory language that says the applicant need "only" submit an accurate photocopy of the certificate would include the applicant demonstrating it is an accurate photocopy by also presenting the original for comparison.........

......... But, instructors do not seem to get at all concerned if we put up the artificial barrier. Hey, I am sorry Ethel, you cannot protect yourself because you refuse to shoot anything bigger than a .22,.......


I have thought this myself on several occasions but have never had a chance to post that contradiction. Thank you Paul for finally posting this for me, and I agree, very narrow minded, or maybe it would be better to say closed minded by some instructors that wag their tongue both ways.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:34 am 
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cobb wrote:
phorvick wrote:
How many times have there been threads that berate Sheriff's or take them to task for something as minimalist as asking to see the original certificate to verify the authenticity of the copy? Why, there is outrage expressed at the Sheriff exceeding their authority simply because they made a logical interpretation that the statutory language that says the applicant need "only" submit an accurate photocopy of the certificate would include the applicant demonstrating it is an accurate photocopy by also presenting the original for comparison.........

......... But, instructors do not seem to get at all concerned if we put up the artificial barrier. Hey, I am sorry Ethel, you cannot protect yourself because you refuse to shoot anything bigger than a .22,.......


I have thought this myself on several occasions but have never had a chance to post that contradiction. Thank you Paul for finally posting this for me, and I agree, very narrow minded, or maybe it would be better to say closed minded by some instructors that wag their tongue both ways.
Well, I would agree with Paul, except for one kinda minor thing:

He's wrong.

The argument that what the sheriffs do is proper because instructors put up an "artificial barrier" is bogus. If somebody feels that, say, my "artificial barrier" of insisting on a (let's face it, rather modest) qual is something too demanding or otherwise undesirable for them, they can just go down the road to Paul -- who will do an even easier qual -- or all the way down to the Coconut Charlie types, even though that'll cost them more than Paul's class, and they'll get less out of it.

Free country.

But an applicant who objects to the sheriff sticking his badged nose in the tent doesn't get to take his tent down the road to the next sheriff, now, does he?

It isn't the language that says "applicant need 'only' submit an accurate photocopy of the certificate" that makes the impertinent demand for the original improper.

It's this; and I'm going to add some emphasis, because, alas, some people aren't paying attention.

Quote:
The applicant must not be asked or required to submit, voluntarily or involuntarily, any information, fees, or documentation beyond that specifically required by this subdivision.


Let's strip out some of the excess, and look at that again:

Quote:
The applicant must not be asked to submit any documentation beyond that specifically required by this subdivision.


I'm no lawyer -- Paul is -- so maybe there's some lawyerese meaning to "must not" that I don't get that he can explain to me that somehow makes those words mean anything other than what the clearly say.

Hell, I'll probably even pay prevailing rates, if he'll let me know in advance how much I'm signing up to pay.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:06 am 
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I may have misunderstood what Paul was saying, but I didn't think he was giving any opinion as to the legality of the sheriff departments requiring an applicant to bring their original training certificate in. I think his point is that there are instructors the have an issue with the sheriff requiring this because it is not required by law. Then those same instructors will not allow a student use a .22 rimfire for the range exercise in their class, yet a .22 rimfire meets state standards, so the instructor is imposing a requirement outside the law. Some will say this is comparing apples to oranges, maybe it is, but I see the point.

As far as rounds fires, I have a minimum of 30 whith no more than 5 rounds in the handgun at a time. I want to see the student manipulate his firearm and demonstrate a basic familiarization with it, that is why no more than 5 rounds in the firearm at a time.

Dang, and I was doing my best to just read and stay out of this. :?


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:08 am 
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cobb wrote:
I may have misunderstood what Paul was saying, but I didn't think he was giving any opinion as to the legality of the sheriff departments requiring an applicant to bring their original training certificate in. I think his point is that there are instructors the have an issue with the sheriff requiring this because it is not required by law.
Except, of course, that's wrong: the issue that some instructors have with this is the sheriff requiring that which is forbidden by law for them to even ask for, much less require.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:29 am 
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joelr wrote:
cobb wrote:
I may have misunderstood what Paul was saying, but I didn't think he was giving any opinion as to the legality of the sheriff departments requiring an applicant to bring their original training certificate in. I think his point is that there are instructors the have an issue with the sheriff requiring this because it is not required by law.
Except, of course, that's wrong: the issue that some instructors have with this is the sheriff requiring that which is forbidden by law for them to even ask for, much less require.


I assume you are referring to the following when you say that it is forbidden for the sheriff to ask for more.
Quote:
(c) An applicant must submit to the sheriff an application packet consisting only of the following items:


I see what you are saying and it is outside the scope of what is required to be submitted, but a student is not submitting their original certificate, the sheriff want to see the original to verify this -
Quote:
(2) an accurate photocopy of the certificate described in subdivision 2a, paragraph (c), that is submitted as the applicant's evidence of training in the safe use of a pistol;


So another question. I do not see where in the law it is required to see the applicants driver license, the law says -
Quote:
(3) an accurate photocopy of the applicant's current driver's license, state identification card, or the photo page of the applicant's passport.

But to my knowledge, every applicant that I know of has had to show the issuing sheriff department their drivers license, but yet the law says that they have to only submit a accurate photo copy.

So what is the difference if the sheriff department is requiring to see the applicant driver's license when applying, it is not required by the law that I see, yet asking to see the applicant's training certificate is forbidden? Maybe it is a part of another law that I am not familiar with that deals with applications to the state of Minnesota, that is why I ask.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:37 am 
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cobb wrote:
joelr wrote:
cobb wrote:
I may have misunderstood what Paul was saying, but I didn't think he was giving any opinion as to the legality of the sheriff departments requiring an applicant to bring their original training certificate in. I think his point is that there are instructors the have an issue with the sheriff requiring this because it is not required by law.
Except, of course, that's wrong: the issue that some instructors have with this is the sheriff requiring that which is forbidden by law for them to even ask for, much less require.


I assume you are referring to the following when you say that it is forbidden for the sheriff to ask for more.
Quote:
(c) An applicant must submit to the sheriff an application packet consisting only of the following items:


I see what you are saying and it is outside the scope of what is required to be submitted,
Yes, it is. And -- for the servants, in this case -- that which they are not required to collect they are forbidden to ask for.
Quote:
but a student is not submitting their original certificate, the sheriff want to see the original to verify this
Well, if they do, they're idiots. If the copy is genuine, they don't need to see the original; if the copy is forged, what a good, service-oriented deputy would want to do is verify that (say, by calling the instructor), and then arrest the forger.

I've heard all the nonsense about "certificate fraud" before. It'd be easy to prosecute -- you don't normally have the perp show up at the sheriff's office to sign the confession in the act of committing the crime, after all -- but it's just smoke and mirrors. It's not a real problem, or they'd be arresting the criminal fish who insist on leaping into the boat.

Nah. What some sheriffs offices are doing isn't seeing the original to verify it and prevent forgers from getting prosecuted for their forgeres; what they're doing is sticking their badges noses into the tent.

Quote:
- are saying and it is outside the scope of what is required to be submitted,
Quote:
(2) an accurate photocopy of the certificate described in subdivision 2a, paragraph (c), that is submitted as the applicant's evidence of training in the safe use of a pistol;


So another question. I do not see where in the law it is required to see the applicants driver license, the law says -
Quote:
(3) an accurate photocopy of the applicant's current driver's license, state identification card, or the photo page of the applicant's passport.

But to my knowledge, every applicant that I know of has had to show the issuing sheriff department their drivers license, but yet the law says that they have to only submit a accurate photo copy.
Well, no, in HennCo I was not asked to produce my drivers license.

But you're right: the sheriffs who ask for the original of that are wrong, wrong, and wrong, too.

Quote:

So what is the difference if the sheriff department is requiring to see the applicant driver's license when applying, it is not required by the law that I see, yet asking to see the applicant's training certificate is forbidden? Maybe it is a part of another law that I am not familiar with that deals with applications to the state of Minnesota, that is why I ask.
Nope. It's the nose issue, not the law issue.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:42 am 
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cobb wrote:
joelr wrote:
cobb wrote:
I may have misunderstood what Paul was saying, but I didn't think he was giving any opinion as to the legality of the sheriff departments requiring an applicant to bring their original training certificate in. I think his point is that there are instructors the have an issue with the sheriff requiring this because it is not required by law.
Except, of course, that's wrong: the issue that some instructors have with this is the sheriff requiring that which is forbidden by law for them to even ask for, much less require.


I assume you are referring to the following when you say that it is forbidden for the sheriff to ask for more.
Quote:
(c) An applicant must submit to the sheriff an application packet consisting only of the following items:


I see what you are saying and it is outside the scope of what is required to be submitted, but a student is not submitting their original certificate, the sheriff want to see the original to verify this -
Quote:
(2) an accurate photocopy of the certificate described in subdivision 2a, paragraph (c), that is submitted as the applicant's evidence of training in the safe use of a pistol;


So another question. I do not see where in the law it is required to see the applicants driver license, the law says -
Quote:
(3) an accurate photocopy of the applicant's current driver's license, state identification card, or the photo page of the applicant's passport.

But to my knowledge, every applicant that I know of has had to show the issuing sheriff department their drivers license, but yet the law says that they have to only submit a accurate photo copy.

So what is the difference if the sheriff department is requiring to see the applicant driver's license when applying, it is not required by the law that I see, yet asking to see the applicant's training certificate is forbidden? Maybe it is a part of another law that I am not familiar with that deals with applications to the state of Minnesota, that is why I ask.


Man, did I luck out when I went to Hennepin (before it moved to the current digs, mind you). All I needed was the info listed in the law, plus my check.

For the record, it was a much younger deputy (late 20's, early 30's), and was over the lunch hour. I ended up asking to have prints taken for a different reason at the same time, and he chatted like crazy without prompting about what he thought were decent concealment holsters, Streichers pricing and special orders, etc.

I loved his greeting when I went to the window:

Deputy: "Afternoon. Help you?

Me: "I'm here to drop off my permit to carry application."

Deputy: "Excellent! Got your packet?"

And so it went.

I don't think the old guy at the Grain Exchange these days is quite so friendly. :lol:

-Mark


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:44 am 
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Maybe some may chime in, but as I mentioned, I know that some sheriff departments in southern Minnesota that are asking to see the driver license of the applicants. These same departments are not asking to see the original training certificate though, the have been accepting the photo copy without issue. I do not know and am kinda curious now as to what would happen if an applicant did not have a form of Minnesota ID on them when applying in the county's that are asking to see one. Would they refuse to accept the application?


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:46 am 
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cobb wrote:
Maybe some may chime in, but as I mentioned, I know that some sheriff departments in southern Minnesota that are asking to see the driver license of the applicants. These same departments are not asking to see the original training certificate though, the have been accepting the photo copy without issue. I do not know and am kinda curious now as to what would happen if an applicant did not have a form of Minnesota ID on them when applying in the county's that are asking to see one. Would they refuse to accept the application?
:)

Now, you're thinking like the pro-civil-rights guy that you are, who understands that government bureaucrats always grab whatever they think they can, no matter how large or small.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:47 am 
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mrokern wrote:
I don't think the old guy at the Grain Exchange these days is quite so friendly. :lol:


No, he isn't nearly as friendly as the guy that took our original application. In fact, he tries to see what he can get away with sometimes. For example, when I changed addresses, he tried to insist that I hand over my old permit until the new one arrives in the mail. That being said, once I gently informed him that that was not acceptable, and asked him to cancel my order for a replacement card, as I had already fulfilled my obligation to inform them of an address change, and was simply requesting a new card as a convenience to both them and myself, he quickly changed his tone.

I'm not saying that he is a bad public servant, but he is not nearly as helpful as the deputy we had before.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:49 am 
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joelr wrote:
cobb wrote:
Maybe some may chime in, but as I mentioned, I know that some sheriff departments in southern Minnesota that are asking to see the driver license of the applicants. These same departments are not asking to see the original training certificate though, the have been accepting the photo copy without issue. I do not know and am kinda curious now as to what would happen if an applicant did not have a form of Minnesota ID on them when applying in the county's that are asking to see one. Would they refuse to accept the application?
:)

Now, you're thinking like the pro-civil-rights guy that you are, who understands that government bureaucrats always grab whatever they think they can, no matter how large or small.


Joel, re the "accurate photocopy" I have no issue with the SO asking for the original and copies to be presented on the basis of this, IF they see the originals, they can be assured that the copy is accurate, and they do not have to call anyone, wait for the return call, wait for the instructor to dig out the info and call back saying yes or no someone took the class. If the person at the window is handed one original set of documents, and one "accurate photocopy" of the Documents, and is able to assure that the copies are "accurate" in 30 seconds rather than a couple of days, this is a good thing, not a bad thing. I can also see that requesting that does not necessarily fall OUTSIDE of statute. IANAL< but the SO is required to accept the "accurate photocopy" and such a request is an easy way to meet the "accurate" part.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:50 am 
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1911fan wrote:
joelr wrote:
cobb wrote:
Maybe some may chime in, but as I mentioned, I know that some sheriff departments in southern Minnesota that are asking to see the driver license of the applicants. These same departments are not asking to see the original training certificate though, the have been accepting the photo copy without issue. I do not know and am kinda curious now as to what would happen if an applicant did not have a form of Minnesota ID on them when applying in the county's that are asking to see one. Would they refuse to accept the application?
:)

Now, you're thinking like the pro-civil-rights guy that you are, who understands that government bureaucrats always grab whatever they think they can, no matter how large or small.


Joel, re the "accurate photocopy" I have no issue with the SO asking for the original and copies to be presented on the basis of this, IF they see the originals, they can be assured that the copy is accurate, and they do not have to call anyone, wait for the return call, wait for the instructor to dig out the info and call back saying yes or no someone took the class.
Sure. The only thing wrong with that demand is that it's forbidden by law.

Other than that, it's just fine. More or less. If they really want to let forgers avoid prosecution.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:03 am 
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joelr wrote:
1911fan wrote:
joelr wrote:
cobb wrote:
Maybe some may chime in, but as I mentioned, I know that some sheriff departments in southern Minnesota that are asking to see the driver license of the applicants. These same departments are not asking to see the original training certificate though, the have been accepting the photo copy without issue. I do not know and am kinda curious now as to what would happen if an applicant did not have a form of Minnesota ID on them when applying in the county's that are asking to see one. Would they refuse to accept the application?
:)

Now, you're thinking like the pro-civil-rights guy that you are, who understands that government bureaucrats always grab whatever they think they can, no matter how large or small.


Joel, re the "accurate photocopy" I have no issue with the SO asking for the original and copies to be presented on the basis of this, IF they see the originals, they can be assured that the copy is accurate, and they do not have to call anyone, wait for the return call, wait for the instructor to dig out the info and call back saying yes or no someone took the class.
Sure. The only thing wrong with that demand is that it's forbidden by law.

Other than that, it's just fine. More or less. If they really want to let forgers avoid prosecution.


How else do they verify "accurate" and does "submit" mean show at the window, or leave with them for processing.....I do not see "submitting" as being asked to show for verification. I see submitting as leaving it with them for prosecution.....

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:47 am 
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1911fan wrote:
joelr wrote:
1911fan wrote:
joelr wrote:
cobb wrote:
Maybe some may chime in, but as I mentioned, I know that some sheriff departments in southern Minnesota that are asking to see the driver license of the applicants. These same departments are not asking to see the original training certificate though, the have been accepting the photo copy without issue. I do not know and am kinda curious now as to what would happen if an applicant did not have a form of Minnesota ID on them when applying in the county's that are asking to see one. Would they refuse to accept the application?
:)

Now, you're thinking like the pro-civil-rights guy that you are, who understands that government bureaucrats always grab whatever they think they can, no matter how large or small.


Joel, re the "accurate photocopy" I have no issue with the SO asking for the original and copies to be presented on the basis of this, IF they see the originals, they can be assured that the copy is accurate, and they do not have to call anyone, wait for the return call, wait for the instructor to dig out the info and call back saying yes or no someone took the class.
Sure. The only thing wrong with that demand is that it's forbidden by law.

Other than that, it's just fine. More or less. If they really want to let forgers avoid prosecution.


How else do they verify "accurate" and does "submit" mean show at the window, or leave with them for processing.....I do not see "submitting" as being asked to show for verification. I see submitting as leaving it with them for prosecution.....
I think you're right: they're only allowed to require submission, and only of the required documents.

So, let's look at the possibilities . . .

Joe Bob Forger shows up at the window with a copy of a training cert. The keen-eyed professionals behind the counter have their suspicions that it's forged. Maybe they routinely check with the instructors (very common back in 2003), or maybe it's from the Grace Madison Gun Training and Storm Door Institute, and they think it's bogus . . .

So they say, "Hey, sorry, we can't accept this without seeing the original." The forger steals away into the mist and shadows, leaving behind no evidence. He mutters to himself, "Close one. They coulda had me, dead bang to rights."

I'm not sure I agree with your police work there, Deputy Fife.

In the universe where the deputy wants to obey the friggin' law, he accepts the certificate, glances at the copy of the DL to make sure it's got a picture of the same face he sees in front of him, and maybe makes sure to save the windowcam video for future reference, then sends the forger dude on his way, smiling. He'll be able to find him when it's time for the arrest.

Upon professional investigation, he discovers that, yup, he was right: it is a fraudulent certificate. Fraud and forgery are crimes; he contacts the County Attorney, and an arrest warrant is issued . . .

And the forger dude gets to put on a defense before he's slam dunked into prison.

Which do you think is better police work?

But let's forget the notion of catching forgeries, because Deputy Fife doesn't want to do that after all. And since what ol' Barney really wants to do isn't to find forgers, but to punish the impertinence of applicants who aren't interested in providing documentation that the law forbids the deputy from so much as asking for, sure, when J. Random Citizen shows up at the counter with everything that he's required by law to present, and nothing more, Deputy Fife sends him home to make another trip, because what he really wants to do, after all, is punish the peon for not deferring to his authoritah, and all this talk about verification and certificate fraud is just smoke, mirrors, and bullshit.

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