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 Question about holster legality....... 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:06 pm 
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If you can't handle vigorous debate, the Internet is not the place to be. :)

Anyway, you weren't chastised at all. You put forward some dubious propositions, and they got shot down.

No matter the circumlocution, this thing isn't a holster by any definition. At best, it is a shape-disguiser for a pocket.

Certainly, carrying it without one in the pipe would obviate any risk of an ND in the draw. On the other hand, there are some strong demerits:

1. Carrying without a round in the chamber negates the supposed benefit of this silly thing -- being able to shoot without an extra step (removing a gun from a holster).

2. Adrenaline makes you slow, stupid, clumsy and forgetful:

* Slow: do you really want to add slide-racking time?
* Clumsy: fine motor skills go out the window. The LCP (I have one) has a tiny slide, and then this thing covers part of it. Racking that slide successfully is going to be tough when you are fighting for your life, no matter how many times you practice in front of the TV in the calm safety of your own home.
* Stupid/forgetful: That is, if you even remember that you need to rack the slide.

If that seems like talking down, I'm sorry, but it might just seem that way because your willful denial of some basics of safety, physiology and tactics suggest the need for review of some pretty basic concepts.

In the end, it's your choice. If you follow through on the promise to carry without a round in the chamber, you probably will pose a needless risk only to yourself.

Carry with a round in the chamber, though, and you're an accident waiting to happen, with the potential to cause harm to innocent bystanders, and that's just unacceptable.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:13 pm 
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bensdad wrote:
Once again, Andrew has left me wondering how he really feels. :lol:


Yeah, I'm an enigma, wrapped in a mystery, wrapped in a crowbar. :P

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:16 pm 
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Agreed. No round in the chamber. Do it. Whatever works, but just remember that the puppy is NOT ready to bark...

Chambered? - Not a wise choice, IMHO... I sure would not do it.

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Last edited by Timothy Nelson on Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:18 pm 
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Just a couple of things....I think Andrew is making some assumptions about your knowledge of holsters and not communicating his concerns regarding the "wallet Holster" design as well as usual.

Any of the holsters I've made or purchased in the last 15 years have been designed with a completely covered trigger guard. As recently as 18 years ago most holsters were not designed this way. I still have a duty holster (approved for LEO use in Indiana at the time) for a Colt trooper that is cut away around the trigger guard to "Allow for ease of access to the trigger for faster double-action first shots."

Modern holsters encourage a safer hand position by forcing you to straighten your index finger as you take a firing/drawing grip on your gun. Handling firearms as long as you have, you must have noticed that hand guns are very ergonomic. You must train yourself not to curl your index finger around the trigger until you're on target/ready to fire. That tendency is what worries me most about the "wallet holster" you asked about initially.

I can see scenarios where you put it in a slightly smaller that normal pocket and it hangs up during a draw. That may seem like an inconsequential thing to you but I've seen a deputy draw under stress with a strap securely snapped over his gun. That 8 Lb. draw weight will feel like spider silk if things truly go all pear shaped. I've also seen a DEA agent with "more than 20 years of training and experience" put a burst from an MP-5 through the back seat of a cruiser when someone slammed a door.

In all honesty, I don't worry about issues like accidentally squeezing off a round if I have to draw. That doesn't mean that I don't practice my draw (with all applicable safety precautions) as often as I can. Your admission of draw practice with the holster in question does a little to ease my mind. You must understand that Andrew teaches firearm safety professionally and he gains nothing and stands to lose much if he once takes the stance that its only a minor safety violation or several hundred hours of practice might make that a less dangerous way to accomplish something.

So if Andrew comes off harshly in his criticism of your carry choice, remember that he's probably seen more egregiously stupid gun handling than the majority of us on this board. I don't always agree with Andrew's opinions on safe equipment or practices either but I am not willing to argue a point with someone who may well have witnessed the problems that we academically consider when discussing marginal equipment.


Last edited by prushin on Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:21 pm 
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:upeyes: What he said.

Now for your entertainment and a quality thread drift: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/shamwow

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:24 pm 
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OMFG...

ANYTHING but VINCE

?!?!!??!!?

Put him on a paper target...

:twisted:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:32 am 
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MNGlocker! You are personally responsible for me laughing hard enough to wake the wife. :shock:

Quote:
I've been around firearms for more than 40 years which doesn't mean accidents can't happen, but
Yeah. I haven't been around anything for 40 years. I have made up my mind that I like to carry with a round in the tube and the safety off (on a DA/SA) or a plain ole DA revolver . . . I abhor the idea of messing with safeties or racking slides. I am okay with the passive safeties of my XD, but want something in the tube. It is really hard to imagine carrying without something in the tube. Why not leave the ammo in the trunk until you need it? "here mister bad guy please wait while I rack my slide". This wallet holster shoot through doodad does not sound like something I could use. I have serious doubts about its utility, serious concerns about safety (if it is loaded as a useful self defense tool) . . . I'd hate to be at a range, grocery or an EFFEN breakfast and catch your richochette when that ND happens. Friends don't wear unsafe holsters around friends.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:54 am 
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I'm just not convinced that in the heat of the moment, you'll get the correct grip (accidental finger on the trigger, not the grip) and when you try to pull it out, you pull the trigger.

I wish I could remember where I saw the post (it was a couple years ago, possible on a Kel-Tec forum) where someone put their P3AT in their back pocket without a holster. They triple checked that it was empty, then did a few fast draws to see if this would be an issue. It was only a few tries before he got the dreaded "click". This was with no adrenalin or fear. This convinced him, as well as a few few friends on the internet, that this is a real issue.

Common sense would say it's an issue, but it might be worth the experiment. The gun is never in the same place twice in the pocket. I know I don't get the correct grip out of a pocket without a holster that covers the trigger 100% of the time. A proper holster pretty much guarantees it.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:58 am 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
Magnum Mikie wrote:
Release of Adrenaline also makes a person slow, stupid, clumsy and forgetful while removing an LCP from a convention pocket or OWB holster.


That's twice that you've equated a not-covering-the-trigger "holster" with a real one.

That's disingenuous, as a real holster protects the trigger until the gun has drawn, and this...thing...does not.

There's no rational reason to continue to defend it. It's a dumbass idea and worthy of the trash bin.


This morning while drinking my first cup of java, I went back and re-read the thread. When I came across this post I realized that there was some confusion. Andrew misunderstood my meaning of conventional pocket holster when he said: "That's twice that you've equated a not-covering-the-trigger "holster" with a real one."
This is my conventional pocket holster.
[img][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/pianoman5355317/BerettaLCPand40ammo007.jpg[/img]

This is the belt holster I use with the LCP.
[/img]Image

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:22 am 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
If you can't handle vigorous debate, the Internet is not the place to be. :)

Anyway, you weren't chastised at all. You put forward some dubious propositions, and they got shot down.

No matter the circumlocution, this thing isn't a holster by any definition. At best, it is a shape-disguiser for a pocket.


As for vigorous debate, some might describe this comment as borderline assholish: "There's no rational reason to continue to defend it. It's a dumbass idea and worthy of the trash bin."

First, I wasn't defending anything. Hell, I never even said I was going to use the wallet holster. My original post was regarding the legality of the holster. That's it!

There's a lot of experienced instructors that offer lots of valuable information here and it's greatly appreciated by myself and many others I'm sure. On-the-other-hand, there are members of the other "local" forum that describe this forum as "a pool of pirhannas just waiting to devour an inquiring gun owner". Myself, I have enjoyed this forum because of all the topics covered here, but maybe Andrew is right, maybe this place is not for me. I'll still read the threads, but I'll refrain from partaking in the discussions.

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 Post subject: Holsters, chambered round, etc.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:53 am 
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With all due respect (and without epithets - those belong on the Daily Kos) these discussion sometimes remind me of the endless debates in Philosophy classes over the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

A holster is anything that a gun fits in and is carried (somewhere) on the human body. There are numerous types (including a true POCKET HOLSTER, although not that "thing" with the finger hole. On that one I agree with Andrew - it's...a...something).

The two mandatory qualities of a "good" holster are that it keeps your gun SECURE and ACCESSIBLE (level 0, 1, 2 or pocket holster? Depends on your lifestyle, dress, etc. - and a good, snug level 0 beats a cheap, shoddy level 1 or 2 for security), but I do agree than any holster should cover the trigger until it is drawn.

As for "debating" whether or not to carry an auto-pistol with a round in the chamber? You've got to be kidding. No one serious about self-defense, whether civilian or special ops professional (and I know more than a few), walks out the door with any auto-pistol unless it is loaded and ready to use - and that means a round in the chamber. In fact, all of the newest firearms are designed precisely with that in mind.

Now, that being said, the condition in which you carry the gun depends on the gun - if it's a Beretta 92/96 you'd better remember to put the safety on "fire" after you de-cock it, or you will be pressing a trigger that is not engaged. Bang, bang, you're dead.

As for a 1911, the ONLY way it is effective for self-defense is if it is carried "cocked and locked" BUT only if you are so practiced in drawing and clicking off the safety that it is second nature to you.

Most modern self-defense auto-pistols are now designed to have NO active safety procedures - you draw, point, and shoot. In order to deal with the premature firing syndrome observed in some police officers when they first got their Glocks, some of the newer designs such as Kahrs (or the new Sig P250) use no safety, and a longer trigger pull that somewhat mimics the double action trigger pull of a revolver (there's a reason that "unintentional discharges" under stress are rare with revolvers).

Bottom line? I'll stake my life on a good, reliable gun, good, reliable ammo, good secure holster, and (for auto-pistols) definitely a round in the chamber.

You, of course, may do as you wish - it's a free country (at least so far).

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:39 pm 
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I just want to make a final contribution to this forum before returning to permanent lurking mode. After clicking the link below, you'll see a list of "free" videos on the right side. The 3rd one discusses the pros & cons of a round-in-the-pipe.
Btw, most of these free videos last 3 minutes or less and IMO are worth watching. Enjoy!

http://www.guntalk.tv/gtv/library.php?video_id=307

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:31 pm 
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That's a great site. Gresham makes the point that carrying something, even empty chamber, is better than nothing. He also makes the point that the Isreali military practices this.

I'd balance that with: The IM is in a much different situation with a much broader section of the society carrying regularly. Whatever you do, Train as you're planning to fight. If you plan to carry empty chamber against the advice you get here, PRACTICE it a LOT and HOPE you remember when adrenaline hits.

That means every mag you need to put in chamber empty, set the gun down, pick it up, rack, fire. Draw an empty gun, rack, fire ....


best of luck.

Myself, I'll go with one in the pipe and practice accordingly.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:05 pm 
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I understood the legality aspect of the OP. If it's legal to carry, it's legal to carry in any holster (or whatever), in MN law. That said, the illustrated item is no better than Mexican carry, save for disguising the weapon. As 99% of the people are oblivious to guns, I don't worry about deep conceal much, and simply "discreet carry". Being made by the occasional sharp eye is, after all, no big deal, legally.

If one wants to Mexican carry, then Mexican carry. I have, but never below Condition 3 (Empty chamber). Any lower could better be termed "Plaxico carry".

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:01 am 
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Magnum Mikie wrote:
Andrew Rothman wrote:
If you can't handle vigorous debate, the Internet is not the place to be. :)

Anyway, you weren't chastised at all. You put forward some dubious propositions, and they got shot down.

No matter the circumlocution, this thing isn't a holster by any definition. At best, it is a shape-disguiser for a pocket.


As for vigorous debate, some might describe this comment as borderline assholish: "There's no rational reason to continue to defend it. It's a dumbass idea and worthy of the trash bin."

First, I wasn't defending anything. Hell, I never even said I was going to use the wallet holster. My original post was regarding the legality of the holster. That's it!

There's a lot of experienced instructors that offer lots of valuable information here and it's greatly appreciated by myself and many others I'm sure. On-the-other-hand, there are members of the other "local" forum that describe this forum as "a pool of pirhannas just waiting to devour an inquiring gun owner". Myself, I have enjoyed this forum because of all the topics covered here, but maybe Andrew is right, maybe this place is not for me. I'll still read the threads, but I'll refrain from partaking in the discussions.

Good morning Mike,
I have talked with you on the LCP forum and didn't realize you were here also. First let me say that some of what you read on the other local site about this one one is correct,but then some of the folks on the LCP forum are assholes also. You will just need to get use to the fact that just because some folks on the internet are knowledgeable doesn't mean they can't be an ass. Stay above these folks and keep posting.
Bud

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