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 So my friend just took his carry permit class.... 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:13 am 
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My Opinion: If a person leaves a permit to carry class questioning whether or not you actually want to follow through with getting your permit and carrying a gun, then you have most likely received the appropriate level of instruction regarding the law and the consequences to private carry of a firearm should one screw-up.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:39 am 
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Location: I'll get back to you on that
ALWAYS start a class with my standard disclaimers: I am NOT an lawyer, copper or expert. And if you ARE one, get out, you can't take this class.

Second disclaimer: No you do not have to conceal, but do it anyway.

Third disclaimer: No blowing up melons during the qual. My rangemaster gets real pissy about rotting fruit on the backstops.

Fourth disclaimer: This is barely an outline. Your carry education is just beginning and it's YOUR responsibility to further it. Seek out other instructors and make your OWN decisions to enhance that continuing education. And yes, I'll be happy to recommend someone else.

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I won't mind if you call me a racist. And I'm sure YOU won't mind if I call you a target of opportunity.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:52 am 
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boomingmetropolis wrote:
ALWAYS start a class with my standard disclaimers: I am NOT an lawyer, copper or expert. And if you ARE one, get out, you can't take this class.
I fully support your right to decline custom from lawyers, cops and/or experts, but I'm curious as to why. Me, I very much enjoy it when any of those kinds of folks take the class.

In fact, I had two (retired) cops taking the class yesterday; one's a Forum member, and I don't mind say to his metaphorical face what I've said behind his back previously: he's a very nice guy, with a lot of experience that I was happy to take advantage of for the benefit of all involved. (There probably are some cops who aren't storytellers; I haven't met one, yet; he's got lots of them.) I flatter myself to think I'm pretty good at getting across the importance of shutting up and lawyering up if you're in a the-gun's-come-out situation, but he made it easy, yesterday.

I'm never did find out why I had at least two deputies taking the class undercover, back in 2003, but it was a lot of fun, in a different way.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:08 am 
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joelr wrote:
boomingmetropolis wrote:
ALWAYS start a class with my standard disclaimers: I am NOT an lawyer, copper or expert. And if you ARE one, get out, you can't take this class.
I fully support your right to decline custom from lawyers, cops and/or experts, but I'm curious as to why. Me, I very much enjoy it when any of those kinds of folks take the class.


I keep forgetting that tongue in cheek doesn't always translate well in internet land.

And that my keen sense of the absurd is often lost on, ok, a majority of the population.

Looks like I'll have to add these to the list of disclaimers.

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To expect bad men not to do wrong is madness, for he who expects this desires an impossiblity. But to allow men to behave so to others and expect them not to do thee any wrong is irrational and tyranical. Marcus Aurelius

I won't mind if you call me a racist. And I'm sure YOU won't mind if I call you a target of opportunity.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:12 am 
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Could be me, you know; my sense of humor doesn't kick in until the third cup off coffee.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:38 am 
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I've had both ex-cops and active cops in my classes, and they all seemed to really enjoy it. Most of them have expressed great interest in understanding the legal implications of acting "off duty" vs. "on duty".

This is particularly significant for cops who are out-of-state carrying under HR218, when they have no arrest authority and are essentially acting as private citizens.

If you look at anecdotal evidence (I don't know of any scientific data source) cops involved in shootings off-duty tend to be a lot worse off than on-duty. I think that knowing the "citizen" rules for self-defense is extemely beneficial to them.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:50 am 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
johnnyg08 wrote:
Bottom line, no matter how much you pay for your class, if you are in a situation where you have to use your weapon to defend yourself, your afternoon Carry Permit class isn't going to be there for you in court...why spend more than you need to spend?


Seriously?

Because you might learn some things that will keep you from being sent to prison in that court.

Because you might learn something that might keep you alive.

Because you might learn something that might keep you from being there in the first place.


Of course a person can always learn more...but when the sh&t goes down, it's not going to come down to the one class you took 4 years ago...it's the ongoing training, ongoing situational awareness scenarios, keeping abreast w/ what's going on politically, etc...for me, I'll take the cheapest class I can get, knowing that the moment my gun comes out of my holster, everything is going to change. You could have some people sit in a class for 30 weeks and they still might f-up when it's time to not f-up. Heck, have you ever talked to a police shooting instructor about how well cops shoot overall? Many would argue that they get the best training. Cops get paid to train w/ their guns, many PD's get free monthly ammo and free range time and many of them are still horse$hit shots. (There are always exceptions)

I'm not saying that because I choose to take the cheapest class I can find and somebody else believes that your class, Joel's class or whatever class is worth the money that I am right and you are wrong...my point is that I will learn what I need to learn to get my permit and continually educate myself, and hope that the day never comes where I have to use my weapon to defend my life. Continuing education is the key...any learning expert will testify to that no matter how great your class is.

As for whether or not my carry instructor will testify in court for me...who cares, what are they going to testify to? Pretty simple...Do you teach your course according to the law? Was person x in your course? Did you observe person x qualify w/ gun? Whoopie! Was your action a justifiable homocide? That's all that matters. (Well, all that matters for the purpose of this discussion)

Good points, but I guess you have a vested interest in disagreeing w/ me...which is the point of the discussion board...thanks for the response.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:26 am 
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Sure. I definitely have a vested (albeit not exactly hidden) interest in folks taking TCCarry. That said, I don't think the benefit from a good class comes from what happens in the unlikely event that a: the gun comes out "for serious" and b: shots get fired, but in more likely situations.

I really wish that one of the, err, minimalist instructors would actually do a really minimal class -- the minimum required stuff could be covered (not well, but . . . ) in about twenty minutes; follow that up by firing one shot at a target five feet away. A bowling ball salesman type could make that profitable at, oh, thirty bucks, and save folks a lot of money.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:31 am 
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I am against the MN permit requirement to exercise your God given right of self protection, so therefore I am also against the legal training requirement. I do believe that training is a must but ....

That being as it is, as a permit instructor, I do believe if we are going do training it should be the best we can get or give. My time spent doing the class is more important to me than the amount of $$$ I spend on the class. If I were to attend a poor class or a class that spends time on unralated matters or sales pitches I would be more upset with the waste of my time than the money spent. YMMV

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