I dunno. Maybe it's a tactical bowling ball.

But, it's hard to top the heavy metal/pop guitars serenading the action in the videos...

Much more fun to see it live!

I have taken a class from this instructor and yes he does talk about exterme shock ammo I don't remember it to be 10 minutes long. he also pushes that people should get glocks. these are just his opinion and you don't have to agree with him. I personally like springfield xd's and gold dot ammo. there is one issue I do have with his classes and that is for the live fire at the range he has you shot 10 rounds at a target and as long as they all hit the target you pass it. He has taken it one step farther and now has you use one of his .22 pistols. My problem with this is that I should be able to test with my own handgun since it is the one I would be carrying. I only took his class because I tought that there was only 3 to 5 instructors in minnesota that were Utah Certified but after seeing this forum I have come to see that there is a good number of instructor that are Utah certified and I would of took their class instead of his. My renewal comes up in 2013 and will probably take my renewal class from Joel R.

Since it's your ass on the line, and given what you've come to realize about the quality of the instruction you've received, do you want to wait five years to find out what else you didn't learn?

Get into a good class now.

I'm trying to figure out how an instructor could determine if somebody knows how to safely load, handle, and shoot a pistol after watching ten rounds fired from a pre-loaded, borrowed .22, and I'm not sure how it could be done.

Maybe he's really, really, really good; maybe rushing things through, and having his kid supervise is just a shady practice. I dunno.

I am sure that there would be plenty of anecdotal stories to go around with this particular instructor. With all due respect all around, I suspect that disparaging anecdotes could be related or fabricated about any number of instructors.

What I found when I took my first class was a dearth of information regarding who might be competent and who might not. I attempted to take a class from an instructor who lives near me. That did not work out well on a number of levels. His apparent incompetence was made known to me even before the class began.

Later on I inquired at a local gun store and ended up taking a class at their facilities (at twice the cost of my first attempt). I was, and still am, satisfied with the level of training and the width and depth of the topics discussed. I left the class with the impression that I should never draw my weapon, something in hindsight I believe is a good thing.

With the notable exception of Joel's web pages, this web site, and a few lines in the classified sections of our city newspapers, there is very little out there to educate the first-time carry class taker.

I believe that a carry class deserves at least as much exposure, advertising exposure, as those Argosy classes on being an assistant to an assistant part-time veterinary janitor.

Maybe it is time for Joel and others to contact M. A. Rossco at Number 9 and have her do a morning feature on carry classes.

shadluckace I have the same instructor, so I had a good talk with my friend AGoodDay and later took my class again with him.

I believe the strongest point an instructor could point out was the law. I left that class confused and uninformed, so I didn't turn in that permit but got a second permit instructor to give me the certification and it was much better. Now I learn and keep my self updated through him and others on this forum and through reading MN statutes and passed laws. but the best thing is I left my second class knowing the laws, dos and do not, and how to operate in society as a permit holder.

I didnt like that instructors beliefs that Glocks are the ultimate firearm, his ammo, and his politics.
Teach me the laws, and how to properly operate as a permit holder. the dos and do nots. what I can do and what I cannot do.

He apparently does a little more than talk about it; my friend told me he sold 3 boxes to students during his class.

And I forgot the tidbit about the instructor requiring you to qualify with his .22 pistol (which my friend says was a total jam-o-matic). But only 10 shots?

While the vast majority of my students qualify with their own handguns, I do have a .22 for rent they can qualify with. The gun is not "pre-loaded" - they are simply provided with a pistol, magazines, and ammo, and have to demonstrate the safe loading, handling, and firing of the pistol.

I've long held that the permit-to-carry class is not about how to shoot, but when to shoot (and more importantly, when not to).

Now, when I move on to tactical courses, I expect the students to come fully equipped.

When it comes to instructor competence, I think that reputation and credentials are key. Unfortunately, most first-time students don't know where to start. From 1997 to only very recently all of my advertisement has been via word of mouth, and that's worked well for me.

The discussion about ammo makes me sigh a sad sigh. Just last night I overheard a gun store employee telling a customer about "Black Talon" ammo...sad thing, he was simply parroting the HCI-inspired urban legends and other BS that was printed in the press when the ammo was introduced 15 years ago. "Black Talon is designed to kill, and will hurt you in court", "Metal shards from Black Talon bullets were injuring ER doctors" (a Brady campaign fairy tale).

Between hearing that and another occasion where an employee of the same store told me troops in Iraq were shooting 7.62x39 ammo in re-chambered M14s (that's why there is a shortage of 7.62x39 ammo, he said), I really have trouble giving them the benefit of the doubt.

not defending any trainer or trainers, but there are some questions that get asked at those classes that are silly or get asked a certain way that if given the correct answer could hold the trainer liable...for example your question referring to the Xcel center. My understanding is that there are situations where you probably could legally (w/ permit) carry there...however there are times such as the RNC where carry would be strictly forbidden...how can you give a 'correct' yes or no answer to that type of question when your class participant will hold you responsible for whatever you say...because often times people only hear what they want to hear.

Bottom line, no matter how much you pay for your class, if you are in a situation where you have to use your weapon to defend yourself, your afternoon Carry Permit class isn't going to be there for you in court...why spend more than you need to spend?

Seriously?

Because you might learn some things that will keep you from being sent to prison in that court.

Because you might learn something that might keep you alive.

Because you might learn something that might keep you from being there in the first place.

The value of a good permit class isn't in the shooting or the ammo or all the gun stuff. It's easy to get sucked into the gear, gadgets, and guns but a good class is about so much more than that.

A good class will:

Emphasize awareness and avoidance - The best way to win a defensive force situation is to avoid it in the first place

Emphasize the laws and consequences regarding the use of force. These are things to think about long ahead of time and modify your behaviors accordingly.

Emphasize the aftermath including legal complications and the IMPERATIVE to lawyer up, shut up, and not consent to any searches.


A good class will both teach you things and make you think for days or weeks afterward.[/list]

Well, I think I get to comment from a privileged position here, as I'm probably the most expensive carry permit instructor (although not by a whole lot, and I do include things like the book, and the handouts, and don't charge bogus "facilitees" fees and such) . . .

For those who really think that they know all that they need to, and just need to get their ticket stamped, I can't see any reason not to go with the cheapest, fastest class that they can get . . .

. . . unless, of course, they're wrong about knowing everything that they need to know.

That said, there are ways to work around an inadequate class -- and the Forum is, willy nilly, one of them.

Consider the number of folks who have gotten carry permits who post here, asking for the names/numbers of a criminal defense attorney, just in case they need one. 'Course, those are the smart/lucky ones -- I know of others who have gone all talkity, and started asking those sorts of questions much too late.

Yup. And,according to his website, you have to hit the target only six times to qualify.

I don't make this stuff up, you know.

In 2005 for qualification I shot a 9mm and about fifty rounds.

I still have the paper target.