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 So my friend just took his carry permit class.... 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:41 am 
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I wish the state had stricter guidelines for becoming a instructor and how the classes are run.
I to had sales BS by the instructor that shouldn't have been in my class.
This guy was suppose to be a highly recommended instructor to. The only thing missing was tupperware sales.

I mentioned before the range shooting we did was a joke. Some didn't even know ANYTHING about using a pistol. It was scary watching them shoot. I stayed well away from them. But everyone passed :roll: and the instructor got paid. That's all that mattered I guess.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:44 am 
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JimC wrote:
I wish the state had stricter guidelines for becoming a instructor and how the classes are run.
I don't, as I think the cure would be worse than the disease, but I'm not unsympathetic with the sentiment.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:45 am 
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JimC I am sorry to disagree about needing stricter instructor guidelines. As a consumer it is our responsibility to find the best quality product at the price we can afford.
More regulation does not mean better quality.
Tougher guidelines mean more jobs for lawyers to invent ways around them. -no insults intended to the lawyers on board.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:53 am 
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More generally, I think the issue around selling other stuff is kind of a can of worms.

One of the reasons that I deliberately don't sell anything in class other than the class itself is that it makes it easy to recommend stuff without anybody (including me) worrying about why I'm doing it. I don't think it's a secret that I'm a fan of (in no particular order) Mika pocket holsters, Smith and Wesson snubbies, Federal EFMJ ammunition, and the Original Tommy's Gun Pack.

Would I seem to be compromised if I got a (disclosed, just to be fair?) commission from any of those? I dunno, but I'd just as soon not get involved in that.

Which isn't to say that I think it's necessarily wrong to offer other stuff -- the AACFI instructors, for example, can and do sell the AACFI portable locking gun box, and I think that's a fine product, which I have no problem in recommending for some applications -- but it does create some issues, and I'm just as happy not to have to deal with those.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:54 pm 
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johnnyg08 wrote:
Bottom line, no matter how much you pay for your class, if you are in a situation where you have to use your weapon to defend yourself, your afternoon Carry Permit class isn't going to be there for you in court...why spend more than you need to spend?


Mine would be.

Every student an instructor certifies is a potential liability to them - so they damn sure better know what they are doing, and be able to back it up in court. I have professional liability insurance coverage for this, because it's my ass too.

If any of my students are ever involved in a legitimate self-defense shooting, I'll be there to help them.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:59 pm 
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joelr wrote:
JimC wrote:
I wish the state had stricter guidelines for becoming a instructor and how the classes are run.
I don't, as I think the cure would be worse than the disease, but I'm not unsympathetic with the sentiment.
And, alas, unless some folks clean up their act, I'm guessing that we'll end up with that. Alas, again; I'm not sure how defensible, say, a course of fire consisting of, oh, shooting a pellet gun in a hotel room, or shooting a laser training <s>toy</s> advanced tacticool simulatorathon, or ten shots with a borrowed .22 at a target, passing while missing a close piece of paper with four of them would be.

We'll see, probably.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:57 pm 
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johnnyg08 wrote:

Bottom line, no matter how much you pay for your class, if you are in a situation where you have to use your weapon to defend yourself, your afternoon Carry Permit class isn't going to be there for you in court...why spend more than you need to spend?


My permit instructor will testify on my behalf, at both a criminal and civil proceeding, in the event I actually am involved in a shooting. I didn't choose his course based on price; he was personally recommended to me. He didn't try to sell me anything, either....although I later returned and purchased my trusty Glock 17 from him.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:48 am 
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Don't go hate'n on Extreme Shock ammo. One round of Extreme Shock carries so much kinetic energy that if it even grazes your finger or bottom of your leg, it sends an extreme shockwave of kinetic energy up through the rest of your body, amplifying like a tidal wave as it goes, and by the time the kinetic energy reaches your head, it will send the head flying off the body straight into the air hundreds of feet.

Extreme shock ammo is so potent that even with a MISS, the vacuum created in it's wake is so extreme that that it will rip the flesh off the bone as all surrounding mass is sucked into it's path.

That's to say nothing of what happens when an extreme shock round hits the center of mass. Then, the victim is instantly vaporized because of the extreme shock of the kinetic energy and the special stuff they put in the bullet. It's like BOOM and there's a huge explosion of flesh flying in every direction like that ending scene from JAWS when the shark's parts are landing all over the place.

:wink: :roll: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:18 am 
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peckerhead wrote:
johnnyg08 wrote:

Bottom line, no matter how much you pay for your class, if you are in a situation where you have to use your weapon to defend yourself, your afternoon Carry Permit class isn't going to be there for you in court...why spend more than you need to spend?


My permit instructor will testify on my behalf, at both a criminal and civil proceeding, in the event I actually am involved in a shooting. I didn't choose his course based on price; he was personally recommended to me. He didn't try to sell me anything, either....although I later returned and purchased my trusty Glock 17 from him.
I think being willing to testify on behalf of one's students is a fine thing, and the only reason I don't promote myself that way -- even though, of course, I would be -- is that I think it's, well, not really an issue. (I know Mark thinks it is, and that's okay; this being America, he's allowed that opinion, just like he is his theory about the FBI NIBIN program and the necessity of policing up your brass so that some gangbanger doesn't gather it up, shoot somebody, and drop your brass at a crime scene and have it scooped up and identified as yours from the FBI database, which can't do that, anyway.)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:14 pm 
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You know what made a bigger impression on me? My instructor assured the class that if we were caught violating his advice and the law, like carrying drunk or the like, he would testify against us, and to quote:
Quote:
and I'm good.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:16 pm 
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JimC wrote:
I wish the state had stricter guidelines for becoming a instructor and how the classes are run.
I to had sales BS by the instructor that shouldn't have been in my class.
This guy was suppose to be a highly recommended instructor to. The only thing missing was tupperware sales.

I mentioned before the range shooting we did was a joke. Some didn't even know ANYTHING about using a pistol. It was scary watching them shoot. I stayed well away from them. But everyone passed :roll: and the instructor got paid. That's all that mattered I guess.


Not I. Who knows what the state would come up with for requirements that would be unrealistic and expensive? I don’t promote any product in my classes but I will offer an “opinion” if solicited. I make sure they understand that it is only an opinion and may or may not fit their needs. I also ask potential students if they are new to handguns. If they are I insist they take an introductory course like the NRA’s First Steps class before they can take my carry permit course. They can take it from me or anyone else they choose. Handling the gun safely, load the gun safely, and shoot safely is something they need to demonstrate to me on the range and if they have never handled a handgun before they will flunk. This is not the class where I want to take the time to teach them these things.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:21 pm 
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The best way to improve the quality of carry and defensive pistol instructors would be to get rid of the permits altogether. Without the legal requirement to attend a MN permit class before for getting the privilege from the state to carry, the value of the class would be the content of the class rather than the certificate. I believe if that were to happen a few instructors may just fade away.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:27 pm 
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jaysong wrote:
The best way to improve the quality of carry and defensive pistol instructors would be to get rid of the permits altogether. Without the legal requirement to attend a MN permit class before for getting the privilege from the state to carry, the value of the class would be the content of the class rather than the certificate. I believe if that were to happen a few instructors may just fade away.
Oh, absolutely. No matter how good the marketing is, I can't see many people taking a shady or bowling ball class without the necessity of getting a ticket stamped. (Which isn't to denigrate those folks who sell bowling balls or laser toys or tooth veneers or whatever, in other contexts; nothing wrong with that.)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:16 am 
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joelr wrote:
peckerhead wrote:
johnnyg08 wrote:

Bottom line, no matter how much you pay for your class, if you are in a situation where you have to use your weapon to defend yourself, your afternoon Carry Permit class isn't going to be there for you in court...why spend more than you need to spend?


My permit instructor will testify on my behalf, at both a criminal and civil proceeding, in the event I actually am involved in a shooting. I didn't choose his course based on price; he was personally recommended to me. He didn't try to sell me anything, either....although I later returned and purchased my trusty Glock 17 from him.
I think being willing to testify on behalf of one's students is a fine thing, and the only reason I don't promote myself that way -- even though, of course, I would be -- is that I think it's, well, not really an issue. (I know Mark thinks it is, and that's okay; this being America, he's allowed that opinion, just like he is his theory about the FBI NIBIN program and the necessity of policing up your brass so that some gangbanger doesn't gather it up, shoot somebody, and drop your brass at a crime scene and have it scooped up and identified as yours from the FBI database, which can't do that, anyway.)


:shock: I guess he must have forgotten to mention that at the class I attended.

He's got an interesting way of illustrating the consequences of breaking certain laws while carrying....by telling us "we'd lose our gun, permit, and go to jail, where we'd be Bubba's bitch, and it'd sound like this, all night long" <thumps hands together repeatedly>.


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 Post subject: Info missing? Ads enough reason to avoid this instructor?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:06 am 
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Just some questions from a noob here:

I took the class last week from this particular instructor, and I too felt that the time spent on this ammo (an some other topics) was an advertisement for the instructor's items for sale and political stance. While I agreed with all he said politically, the salesmanship, especially regarding the ammo, could have been bypassed. I did find the info received useful and the instructor to be entertaining, informative and easy to follow. I may direct my wife to him for her class, but before I do, here are my questions for those of you who also attended his classes. Did anyone feel there was information missing or topics not covered in their classes with him? Is his plugging or advertising his services or items for sale the only reason to avoid him in the future? I guess I was able to overlook the time somewhat wasted by considering the admission cost factor...

Looking forward to receiving my PTC any day now...anyone else have a recent turnaround time for Washington County?


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