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 So my friend just took his carry permit class.... 
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 Post subject: Re: Info missing? Ads enough reason to avoid this instructor
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:19 am 
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rteam2 wrote:
Just some questions from a noob here:

I took the class last week from this particular instructor, and I too felt that the time spent on this ammo (an some other topics) was an advertisement for the instructor's items for sale and political stance. While I agreed with all he said politically, the salesmanship, especially regarding the ammo, could have been bypassed. I did find the info received useful and the instructor to be entertaining, informative and easy to follow. I may direct my wife to him for her class, but before I do, here are my questions for those of you who also attended his classes. Did anyone feel there was information missing or topics not covered in their classes with him? Is his plugging or advertising his services or items for sale the only reason to avoid him in the future? I guess I was able to overlook the time somewhat wasted by considering the admission cost factor...

Looking forward to receiving my PTC any day now...anyone else have a recent turnaround time for Washington County?
There are some good instructors who will, upon occasion, let somebody sit through their classes, gratis. I think you might find it well worth the time to do that, and then make your own comparisons.

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 Post subject: Re: Info missing? Ads enough reason to avoid this instructor
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:20 am 
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rteam2 wrote:
Just some questions from a noob here:

I took the class last week from this particular instructor, and I too felt that the time spent on this ammo (an some other topics) was an advertisement for the instructor's items for sale and political stance. While I agreed with all he said politically, the salesmanship, especially regarding the ammo, could have been bypassed. I did find the info received useful and the instructor to be entertaining, informative and easy to follow. I may direct my wife to him for her class, but before I do, here are my questions for those of you who also attended his classes. Did anyone feel there was information missing or topics not covered in their classes with him? Is his plugging or advertising his services or items for sale the only reason to avoid him in the future? I guess I was able to overlook the time somewhat wasted by considering the admission cost factor...

Looking forward to receiving my PTC any day now...anyone else have a recent turnaround time for Washington County?


Just my $0.02/worth but I am turned off by an instructor trying to sell me ‘stuff’ when I have paid for a class that is suppose to educate me on a particular subject. That is why I don’t do this to my students. As I said I will gladly offer an “opinion” if one is requested on a particular product that I am familiar with. When talking about holsters I do show several examples and advertisements but I am not trying to sell them to my students. I don’t get a commission on them. They are examples of what is available. I have my favorites and I will tell you why if asked but I don’t say they are the only choice you should make. I have had students show up with a particular make or model of gun that I myself would never buy but I don’t denigrate their choice. Maybe it is all they could afford. It’s better than nothing.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:33 pm 
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I will posit that a most new permit students are entirely unable to judge the completeness or quality of their permit classes. It is impossible to know what an instructor may have missed that might have been important.

I have certified 80 carry permit instructors in the last three years. Almost all of them* had previously taken a carry class. A large majority do a lousy job on the carry law pre-test I administer.

My experience with renewal students tells me roughly the same thing: students are surprised by how much their previous class didn't cover.

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* The exception is members of this forum. The level of general knowledge here among non-instructors puts that of many "certified" instructors to shame. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
The exception is members of this forum. The level of general knowledge here among non-instructors puts that of many "certified" instructors to shame. :)
Yup. (Also true about my older daughter, who easily knows 90% as much about the stuff as most good instructors, and far more than the substandard ones.)

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 Post subject: Re: Info missing? Ads enough reason to avoid this instructor
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:39 pm 
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[/quote]There are some good instructors who will, upon occasion, let somebody sit through their classes, gratis. I think you might find it well worth the time to do that, and then make your own comparisons.[/quote]

I would be willing to take one of them up on that. I took my class from one of the instructors that is getting ragged on in this thread, and honestly, after being a lurker in these forums for the last year or so, I feel like I left his class well informed. While he does tend to spend a fair amount of his time bragging about himself, he also covered the material pretty thoroughly.

I'm not saying he is the best out there. But as far as I can tell, he isn't unqualified either. If I remember correctly, he extended an invitation for his students to sit in on future clases free of charge if they feel the need for a refresher. I would be willing to sit through his again followed by one from any of the "good instructors" for a fair comparison.

Any takers?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:42 pm 
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With all this being written, why does it appear that most are hesitant to name their instructors and offer a critique of the class for the benefit of all?

With no offence intended, we have many instructors on this board who claim to offer a great class. While many here would confirm this, the only way most of us know that is via little snipits of info. I would propose a subforum for people to list the instructor/class they took and their impressions of said class, including the good, the bad and the ugly. But, alas, it is not my forum and not my call.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:08 pm 
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Moby Clarke wrote:
With all this being written, why does it appear that most are hesitant to name their instructors and offer a critique of the class for the benefit of all?

With no offence intended, we have many instructors on this board who claim to offer a great class. While many here would confirm this, the only way most of us know that is via little snipits of info. I would propose a subforum for people to list the instructor/class they took and their impressions of said class, including the good, the bad and the ugly. But, alas, it is not my forum and not my call.


I have resently had another instructor sit through my class. I would love open critique from him. I wouldn't mind students critique either although I have (know of other instructors also) had student claim I have taught them things that I have not. Not even close. I am not sure if someone else told them things on a break or what, but I know for a fact I never taught any thing close to what one student claimed. :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:23 pm 
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Moby Clarke wrote:
With all this being written, why does it appear that most are hesitant to name their instructors and offer a critique of the class for the benefit of all?

With no offence intended, we have many instructors on this board who claim to offer a great class. While many here would confirm this, the only way most of us know that is via little snipits of info. I would propose a subforum for people to list the instructor/class they took and their impressions of said class, including the good, the bad and the ugly. But, alas, it is not my forum and not my call.
It is my forum, and I don't forbid people from criticizing instructors; in this litigious society, I understand that some folks prefer not to name people who do, err, suboptimal stuff.

As to starting a subforum like you suggest, I'll think about it -- but, in the interim, I'll say -- both publicly and privately -- that if somebody with admin privileges wants to go ahead and do that, that's fine with me; I'm willing to see how it goes.

I do prefer that people, when discussing TCCarry (whether it's to offer praise or, err, unpraise) name it and me, but that's just a strong preference, not a demand.

For various reasons, I'm much happier naming instructors when I can say nice things about them, as I've been known to do.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:08 pm 
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Well, here is my $.07 (it used to be .02, but with my stimulous funds, the value has gone up.)

I am not at all comfortable encouraging criticism or negative critique (and that is how I would see the suggested topic area being used).

First, the ego in me believes that I do a pretty good class. Damn good if you ask me (and you didn't, but I like to answer that question anyway!) And, I know that many of the instructors that are on this forum are superb instructors that go above ane beyond the bare essentials (and, I am not criticizing the bare essentialists....they also are doing exactly what is asked and required by the State).

Yet, it is not unheard of for class participants to call me and ask a question about something that was covered in great detail in class. Now, I don't mean that they are seeking more discussion.....it is as if they never heard a word that was said. I believe that it is very common for people that take a 6-8+ hour class to have moments where they are not fully rapt into the content. It is human nature to drift from time to time.

Accordingly, I think it would be very unfair to even suggest in a subtle manner that we (the forum guys and gals) are encouraging people to eat their own.

Also, there are a certain number of just plain phucked up folks that are out to hurt people. I know they exist. Let me tell you of one.

I got a call from Jeff Dunn (Utah BCI Investigator) on Wednesday this week where he advised me that another instructor had issued a complaint about me, stating that I had done a class in Illinois where (a) I did not do the instructing and (b) just showed up at the class to hand out the signed/stamped applications and was therefore committing fraud as to the Utah process. That was a blatant lie; a deliberate malicious lie.

To his credit, Jeff told me that he knew it was not true, and was just letting me know that this ass hat was making trouble.

So, perhaps I am a bit jaded about opening up such a topic area.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:10 am 
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I too feel it would be poor form to allow or encourage anyone to publicly name someone they feel or have heard second or third hand to be a poor instructor. Of course this naming may be taken as gospel without anyone having a clue whether or not the "namer" may have an ax of some sort to grind. For that matter, if the "namer" has only taken one class, what would make them an authority capable and qualified of passing judgment?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:40 am 
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I am undecided on the subject. In the past I have been apprehensive about saying something about the quality of one instructor's work (as determined by a meeting with a student of his) because I felt it might have been seen as a sort of retaliation for a less than ethical thing he did in relation to me that was known on the board. Naming names can be useful, but it can also open a huge can of worms and start feuds.


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 Post subject: Re: Info missing? Ads enough reason to avoid this instructor
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:50 am 
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mrkwns wrote:
Any takers?


I don't care much about "proving" anyone's doing a bad job. I'm more interested in assuring that people have good information.

I'd much rather get the "I learned things in Paul's Class that my original instructor didn't cover" than "Joe Original instructor is terrible"

see PM

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:21 am 
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I'm with Paul on this one.


phorvick wrote:
Well, here is my $.07 (it used to be .02, but with my stimulous funds, the value has gone up.)

I am not at all comfortable encouraging criticism or negative critique (and that is how I would see the suggested topic area being used).

First, the ego in me believes that I do a pretty good class. Damn good if you ask me (and you didn't, but I like to answer that question anyway!) And, I know that many of the instructors that are on this forum are superb instructors that go above ane beyond the bare essentials (and, I am not criticizing the bare essentialists....they also are doing exactly what is asked and required by the State).

Yet, it is not unheard of for class participants to call me and ask a question about something that was covered in great detail in class. Now, I don't mean that they are seeking more discussion.....it is as if they never heard a word that was said. I believe that it is very common for people that take a 6-8+ hour class to have moments where they are not fully rapt into the content. It is human nature to drift from time to time.

Accordingly, I think it would be very unfair to even suggest in a subtle manner that we (the forum guys and gals) are encouraging people to eat their own.

Also, there are a certain number of just plain phucked up folks that are out to hurt people. I know they exist. Let me tell you of one.

I got a call from Jeff Dunn (Utah BCI Investigator) on Wednesday this week where he advised me that another instructor had issued a complaint about me, stating that I had done a class in Illinois where (a) I did not do the instructing and (b) just showed up at the class to hand out the signed/stamped applications and was therefore committing fraud as to the Utah process. That was a blatant lie; a deliberate malicious lie.

To his credit, Jeff told me that he knew it was not true, and was just letting me know that this ass hat was making trouble.

So, perhaps I am a bit jaded about opening up such a topic area.


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 Post subject: Some additional thoughts from the noob
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:53 am 
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As I talk to other new(er) permit holders, I am beginning to get the impression that I received more information from this instructor than they received from theirs, and that I seem to have received it more clearly as well. That's enough for me to return to him in the future. If I have a better understanding of the law and my requirements under it as a result of the class I attended, that's enough for me to return to the same instructor for future needs.


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 Post subject: Re: Some additional thoughts from the noob
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:14 am 
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rteam2 wrote:
As I talk to other new(er) permit holders, I am beginning to get the impression that I received more information from this instructor than they received from theirs, and that I seem to have received it more clearly as well. That's enough for me to return to him in the future. If I have a better understanding of the law and my requirements under it as a result of the class I attended, that's enough for me to return to the same instructor for future needs.
It is also true that each instructor probably brings a somewhat different perspective/approach to the same basic material.

For example, I tell potential class participants up front that my class is not a "tacticool" or "how to shoot", or "draw techniques for the new shooter", or "survival by disarming" type of class. We do tangentially touch those areas, and it is certainly true that such more shooting oriented skills are both important and, well, fun...but... my philosophy (and legal background) says that most people can be taught skills...shooting skills....if that is what they want to pursue in another class setting. I believe my main task is to be sure the applicants know the law, their rights and responsibilities, the laws regarding use of force, conflict avoidance etc. To then be publicly flogged because my class did not teach shooting and moving to cover seems unwarranted.

I also believe that a person can most likely learn something from nearly any instructor...and that is why I encourage folks to take classes from a variety of people.

I have no issues with people "sitting in...auditing" my class (subject to space available etc.)....and I suspect many instructors would do the same.

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