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 If denied in MN. Can you use Utah to carry in MN? 
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 Post subject: If denied in MN. Can you use Utah to carry in MN?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:49 pm 
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Does anyone know if someone is denied in MN but Utah approves them, can they still legally carry in MN?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:54 pm 
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The Utah permit is currently recognized in MN. Whether you'd get approved fro a Utah if you were finally denied a MN permit

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:55 pm 
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Not if they can't possess a firearm in Minnesota.
Section 624.714, subd. 16(b).

See also, section 624.714, subd. 16(c) for court proceeding (B/P on Sheriff) to revoke authority to carry in Minnesota on an out-of-state permit.

Otherwise, yes.


Last edited by kimberman on Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:55 pm 
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How can you be denied here but still even get a Utah permit? don't they use the same systems for background checks? this sounds very weird to me.

(someone with knowledge please enlighten us)


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 Post subject: Re: If denied in MN. Can you use Utah to carry in MN?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:57 pm 
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ssax wrote:
Does anyone know if someone is denied in MN but Utah approves them, can they still legally carry in MN?
Joe's already talked about the statute. (I didn't want to get into that for various reasons; I'm glad he chose to.)

We don't have any case law on that, and that's precisely the issue I discuss in TCCarry with people a: from RamseyCo, who b: have any paper on them at all, and who c: are willing to take a chance on Utah.

Lemme guess: the ongoing RamseyCo problem and how to handle it -- it didn't come up in your class at Bill's, correct?

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Last edited by joelr on Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:58 pm 
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TLRSKUNK wrote:
How can you be denied here but still even get a Utah permit? don't they use the same systems for background checks? this sounds very weird to me.

(someone with knowledge please enlighten us)
Utah doesn't have quite the same standards; specifically, they don't have discretionary language that lets sheriffs abuse applicants, as Fletcher does.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:59 pm 
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You can be denied in Utah for "moral turpitude."

You can be denied in Minnesota for "substantial dangerousness."

Those standards aren't the same but close enough, apparently.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:00 pm 
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TLRSKUNK wrote:
How can you be denied here but still even get a Utah permit? don't they use the same systems for background checks? this sounds very weird to me.

(someone with knowledge please enlighten us)


If you are denied for BS that doesn't disqualify you because you happen to live in a county with a Sheriff who doesn't understand a) the difference between citizens and subjects and b) the letter of the law. That doesn't come up in a background check.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:01 pm 
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princewally wrote:
TLRSKUNK wrote:
How can you be denied here but still even get a Utah permit? don't they use the same systems for background checks? this sounds very weird to me.

(someone with knowledge please enlighten us)


If you are denied for BS that doesn't disqualify you because you happen to live in a county with a Sheriff who doesn't understand a) the difference between citizens and subjects and b) the letter of the law. That doesn't come up in a background check.
... except, maybe, a very good one, when voters are looking into <s>Fletcher's</s> the sheriff's background.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:37 pm 
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I actually took the class with Craig Brownell at mnpistolclass. He told me to not even apply in Ramsey and just shoot for the Utah after I told him about my record not being so clean.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:37 pm 
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kimberman wrote:
You can be denied in Utah for "moral turpitude."

You can be denied in Minnesota for "substantial dangerousness."

Those standards aren't the same but close enough, apparently.


Utah specifically lists crimes of moral turpitude -- dishonest acts like passing bad checks, theft, embezzlement -- of which you must be convicted before being denied.

Ramsey will deny you on the basis of a police call or an acquittal.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:51 pm 
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Screw the justice system. We don't need a pesky thing like a conviction to stand in the way of a denial. A police report will suffice. Acquitted by a jury of your peers? Not good enough for Sheriff Fletcher!

Andrew Rothman wrote:
kimberman wrote:
You can be denied in Utah for "moral turpitude."

You can be denied in Minnesota for "substantial dangerousness."

Those standards aren't the same but close enough, apparently.


Utah specifically lists crimes of moral turpitude -- dishonest acts like passing bad checks, theft, embezzlement -- of which you must be convicted before being denied.

Ramsey will deny you on the basis of a police call or an acquittal.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:53 pm 
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ssax wrote:
I actually took the class with Craig Brownell at mnpistolclass. He told me to not even apply in Ramsey and just shoot for the Utah after I told him about my record not being so clean.


I dunno. When you have a stable of lawyers that seem to regard (and rightly so) Fletcher as their own game of "Wack-A-Mole" I don't know if I'd punt so easily.

Then again I live in Dakota

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:55 pm 
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heh. That's rich. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:01 pm 
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kecker wrote:
ssax wrote:
I actually took the class with Craig Brownell at mnpistolclass. He told me to not even apply in Ramsey and just shoot for the Utah after I told him about my record not being so clean.


I dunno. When you have a stable of lawyers that seem to regard (and rightly so) Fletcher as their own game of "Wack-A-Mole" I don't know if I'd punt so easily.

Then again I live in Dakota



Too bad they don't have a fund hat someone can tap into to pay the legal costs upfront though... The Ramsey County Permit To Carry Relief Fund (RCPTCRF). :)

Not that it isn't worth it. Just might take a while for some (like me) to scrounge up a couple grand. But it's my own doing I guess.


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