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 Cuffed and Stuffed for Open Carry 
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 Post subject: Cuffed and Stuffed for Open Carry
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:56 am 
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Location: Anoka, MN
3-2-09

12:30pm

Coon Rapids (Riverdale Crossing)

For reference, I begin this story carrying a CZ82 9x18mm in an all but unused Czech leather police holster, with thumb-break. I am wearing nothing but shorts/tshirt/sandals with only wallet/gun on me, with keys in left hand and beverage in right.

My girlfriend and I had just eaten at Chipotle and were leaving to pay my phone bill at the adjacent TMobile. After leaving Tmobile, we proceeded across the lot to my truck. I got as far as the rearend of my truck, when a Coon Rapids Police Department marked car flew in and stopped a few parking spots to the left and opposite my side, approximately 15 yards away. The Officer commanded, "Hey, you! Get over here!" Then, "Now turn around, up against the car!" This car was to my left parked next to my truck. I complied with all demands up to this point. As the Officer approached me with pistol drawn, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT FRICKEN' CONCEALED CARRY MEANS?" As he puts my hands behind my head I reply, "Yes Sir." Then he asks, "Then why are you carrying out in the open like that?" I chose my words carefully, "Well, Officer my permit says 'Permit To Carry' not 'Concealed Carry'." He says, "I DON'T CARE WHAT THE FRICKEN PERMIT SAYS! ITS CALLED 'MINNESOTA CONCEALED CARRY LAW' FOR A REASON!"

After disarming me and handing my pistol to his partner to be secured, he immediately started cuffing me. I ask, "Officer, may I ask why we are cuffing?" To which he replies, "So I can frisk you and put you in the car." At this point I am not sure what is going to happen, but start thinking a "Disorderly Conduct/Distubing The Peace" charge is in my future. After putting me in his squad, he and his partner and another officer deliberate on what to charge me with and if open carry is legal. After about ten minutes he comes back and starts asking me the rudimentary questions for his report, where I live, phone number, etc. After that he lets me out of the car, uncuffs me and gives me my keys and wallet back, but no gun yet. First he gives me the speil about how open carry is not the best idea, sheeple will call MWAG, and how if enough sheople would have been disturbed he would have charged me. He also told me that when and if I have law enforcement respond again I should be fine if I do as I did that day. He also admitted that he didn't have much experience with carrying off-duty much so he hasn't had to deal with it himself. All in all the Officers were polite and professional, even if a bit excessive with the detainment. He had me and the girlfriend get in my truck, hands my pistol and mag back to me through my window. I notice my previously-chambered round is missing, so I asked him to get that for me. We shook hands and I asked for his card. Then he went on his way.

No particular agenda on my part, just looking for comments and contructive criticisms from all. Thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:00 pm 
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Sheesh. Unless the cop has been serving for more than thirty-five years, throughout his entire career, open carry by anybody with a carry permit has been lawful . . . and he didn't know that.

Looks like Coon Rapids PD is among the many that need a quick, five-minute inservice on the basics of the carry law. Doubt that they'll get it; if they're ignorant at this point, it's because the brass likes it that way.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:01 pm 
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Someone may need a power point presentation on what the state law authentically is.

:shock: :!: :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:05 pm 
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Timothy Nelson wrote:
Someone may need a power point presentation on what the state law authentically is.

:shock: :!: :wink:
Sure. And I've got a standing offer to do a presentation for any PD that wants one; I'm hardly the only one. That said, given that the basics really would take only about five minutes -- including questions -- any department that wants its boys and girls to know the rules has boys and girls that know the rules.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:06 pm 
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If I ever open carry I shall carry a print-off of the state statutes pertaining to the "conceal carry" law and politely provide the documents to the officers with important sections highlighted if there was such a encounter as above.

Or wouldn't that be wise... Well, I don't plan on OC'ing really anyway... just thinking out loud if I were to and had the "privilege" of being hassled.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:10 pm 
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After the law has been in effect for so long, I find it hard to believe that certain departments ACTUALLY DO NOT know the law... rather, they choose to interpret the law how they see fit, after all, what is a hassled permit holder going to do about it? Can't make them receive the information (provided they need it in the first place.)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:10 pm 
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Location: Anoka, MN
I've been getting suggestions like talking to the chief, asking for a report to see if the officers' account was accurate, and that sort of thing. I've already spoken with Marc Berris and he did think the detainment was overblown, but that there is no action that would be fruitful. Any opinions?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:14 pm 
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madrevar wrote:
I've been getting suggestions like talking to the chief, asking for a report to see if the officers' account was accurate, and that sort of thing. I've already spoken with Marc Berris and he did think the detainment was overblown, but that there is no action that would be fruitful. Any opinions?
Marc's obviously right. That said, if you do talk to or write to Chief Wells, feel free to pass along my standing offer.

I'd definitely want to see the report, if any, were it me.

Were I a resident, I might have words with my elected representative about officer education; depends on how low-key I thought I could handle it.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:35 pm 
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madrevar wrote:
I've already spoken with Marc Berris and he did think the detainment was overblown, but that there is no action that would be fruitful. Any opinions?


Marc knows better than I do. You won't accomplish anything fruitful for this incident, but, if you can educate the chief(ififififif), it may be better for everyone the next time a Coon Rapids cop sees someone open carrying.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:38 pm 
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princewally wrote:
madrevar wrote:
I've already spoken with Marc Berris and he did think the detainment was overblown, but that there is no action that would be fruitful. Any opinions?


Marc knows better than I do. You won't accomplish anything fruitful for this incident, but, if you can educate the chief(ififififif), it may be better for everyone the next time a Coon Rapids cop sees someone open carrying.
Yup. Chief Wells should be embarrassed that one of his boys didn't know the basics, and while it's unlikely that CRPD will admit embarrassment, it's not impossible that a concern about future embarrassment and hassle would inspire some education.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:36 pm 
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Good post, welcome to the forum.

Sounds like you handled it well. You KNEW you were within the boundaries of the law, and you remained calm and patient while the officers figured out something that they should already have known. I bet it was hard to restrain yourself from giving the cop a piece of your mind while he was cuffin'-n'-stuffin'. Well done.

I must say, however, that it irks me a bit that the officer remarked "if enough people would have been disturbed he would have charged me". Charged you with what? Disturbing the peace?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:11 pm 
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sheepdog wrote:
I must say, however, that it irks me a bit that the officer remarked "if enough people would have been disturbed he would have charged me". Charged you with what? Disturbing the peace?


That's one point I'd bring up with the Chief.


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 Post subject: Re: Cuffed and Stuffed for Open Carry
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:13 pm 
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madrevar wrote:
3-2-09

12:30pm

Coon Rapids (Riverdale Crossing)

For reference, I begin this story carrying a CZ82 9x18mm in an all but unused Czech leather police holster, with thumb-break. I am wearing nothing but shorts/tshirt/sandals with only wallet/gun on me, with keys in left hand and beverage in right.

My girlfriend and I had just eaten at Chipotle and were leaving to pay my phone bill at the adjacent TMobile. After leaving Tmobile, we proceeded across the lot to my truck. I got as far as the rearend of my truck, when a Coon Rapids Police Department marked car flew in and stopped a few parking spots to the left and opposite my side, approximately 15 yards away. The Officer commanded, "Hey, you! Get over here!" Then, "Now turn around, up against the car!" This car was to my left parked next to my truck. I complied with all demands up to this point. As the Officer approached me with pistol drawn, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT FRICKEN' CONCEALED CARRY MEANS?" As he puts my hands behind my head I reply, "Yes Sir." Then he asks, "Then why are you carrying out in the open like that?" I chose my words carefully, "Well, Officer my permit says 'Permit To Carry' not 'Concealed Carry'." He says, "I DON'T CARE WHAT THE FRICKEN PERMIT SAYS! ITS CALLED 'MINNESOTA CONCEALED CARRY LAW' FOR A REASON!"

After disarming me and handing my pistol to his partner to be secured, he immediately started cuffing me. I ask, "Officer, may I ask why we are cuffing?" To which he replies, "So I can frisk you and put you in the car." At this point I am not sure what is going to happen, but start thinking a "Disorderly Conduct/Distubing The Peace" charge is in my future. After putting me in his squad, he and his partner and another officer deliberate on what to charge me with and if open carry is legal. After about ten minutes he comes back and starts asking me the rudimentary questions for his report, where I live, phone number, etc. After that he lets me out of the car, uncuffs me and gives me my keys and wallet back, but no gun yet. First he gives me the speil about how open carry is not the best idea, sheeple will call MWAG, and how if enough sheople would have been disturbed he would have charged me. He also told me that when and if I have law enforcement respond again I should be fine if I do as I did that day. He also admitted that he didn't have much experience with carrying off-duty much so he hasn't had to deal with it himself. All in all the Officers were polite and professional, even if a bit excessive with the detainment. He had me and the girlfriend get in my truck, hands my pistol and mag back to me through my window. I notice my previously-chambered round is missing, so I asked him to get that for me. We shook hands and I asked for his card. Then he went on his way.

No particular agenda on my part, just looking for comments and contructive criticisms from all. Thanks


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All in all the Officers were polite and professional, even if a bit excessive with the detainment.
:? :? :?

Really? REALLY? What part of your doing absolutely nothing wrong justified this kind of treatment from these "polite and professional" officers?

It seems to me, and I may be going out on a shaky limb here, but under the circumstances you describe,"polite and professional" would NOT have included "GET UP AGAINST THE CAR!", handcuffing, and a flawed education on the law that they were obviously ignorant about...

On the contrary, this is the type of behavior that cops need to stop, NOW. It seems more like the "I don't enforce the law, I AM the law" attitude that belongs in the Isolated Incidents subforum.

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Last edited by Binky .357 on Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:14 pm 
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Oh, and, welcome to the forum.

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"I think it's a good thing for serving cops to mix with non-cops in a situation where they understand that they aren't in charge." -JoelR

"You'd be amazed at the things a bullet can stop." -Old Irish Proverb


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:28 pm 
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Binky .357 wrote:
Oh, and, welcome to the forum.
Yeah, that, too.

I'm not going to quibble with cops checking out a PERGUN call, honest. I don't know what the Anoka County dispatch folks heard, or said -- although I am curious. And, depending on what the cops heard and/or saw and/or thought they heard and saw, up until the undereducated fine, professional law enforcer started giving out an ignorant, arrogant, and factually inaccurate lecture on the law, I'm not at all sure he was wrong.

After that, well, I am.

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