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 Cuffed and Stuffed for Open Carry 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:06 pm 
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Back on topic:

There seems to have been the occasion threat by police to arrest those who open carry on charges of "disturbing the peace" and possibly other offenses along the same line. This seems to be a disturbing catch-all to me.

If a person were to wear a T-shirt with "F*ck You!" emblazoned on the front or back I suspect that the police would hesitate to arrest the wearer due to First Amendment issues.

Open carrying is legal in Minnesota for permit holders, as we all know. Who could answer the question as to whether the "disorderly conduct" or "disturbing the peace" threats would be justified?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:33 am 
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Traveler wrote:

Open carrying is legal in Minnesota for permit holders, as we all know. Who could answer the question as to whether the "disorderly conduct" or "disturbing the peace" threats would be justified?


Plead not guilty, get an attorney and ask for a court trial instead of a jury trial. I believe a judge is more likely to be able to apply the law correctly than a jury...

At least where I live.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:46 am 
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Traveler wrote:
Back on topic:

There seems to have been the occasion threat by police to arrest those who open carry on charges of "disturbing the peace" and possibly other offenses along the same line. This seems to be a disturbing catch-all to me.

If a person were to wear a T-shirt with "F*ck You!" emblazoned on the front or back I suspect that the police would hesitate to arrest the wearer due to First Amendment issues.

Open carrying is legal in Minnesota for permit holders, as we all know. Who could answer the question as to whether the "disorderly conduct" or "disturbing the peace" threats would be justified?
Pretty straightforward.

1. Get arrested on the discon -- but it's got to be a clean case; any other issues will make the question go away.

2. Get prosecuted. Need some cooperation of the city attorney on this, as he or she would probably want to drop it.

3. Get convicted.

4. Appeal, and have the conviction overturned on the basis that simply carrying openly doesn't qualify under the statute.

Any of the lawyers think I'm wrong on this?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:30 pm 
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One more reason to not open carry.

I happen to be of the opinion that if enough of us choose to exercise this right, enough people will freak out, contact our state legislators and make a big enough stink that we will lose the right to carry all together.
I guess it's not an opinion as much as a fear.

If that's not enough reason to not open carry, one may want to consider this:
If charged with a crime like disorderly conduct (or anything for that matter), even if the charge is b.s. and absolutely will be dropped, the fact that you have been charged with whatever stays on your record and will show up in a criminal background check.
This might come back to haunt you some time down the road - charges dropped or not (for example you apply for a job).
You can always try to get an expungement, but that will be an even bigger pain in the arse than the original ordeal and completely ride on the particular judges mood or position on firearms.
I think it costs a lot of $$ as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:30 am 
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+1


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:37 am 
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EastSideRich wrote:
I happen to be of the opinion that if enough of us choose to exercise this right, enough people will freak out, contact our state legislators and make a big enough stink that we will lose the right to carry all together.

I'm of the opinion that if we keep our gun ownership hidden, we're helping the anti-gunners' campaign to portray gun ownership as something rare, unusual, and perverse.

For me, the single greatest benefit of shall-issue carry laws is that it makes this twisted portrayal of gun ownership more difficult.

I'm very much in favor of open carry, as a part of a general campaign of getting gun owners out of the closet. But your fears are legitimate, which is why I think that open carry needs to be discreet.

We want open carry done in such a way so as that if someone makes a stink about it, it's the person complaining, not the person carrying, who comes off as a lunatic. And given the state of the media, these days, that's going to take some care.

So I'm all in favor of seeing folks getting arrested for open carrying while planting a tree in their own yard. It comes off as clearly a case of police over-reaction.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:32 am 
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It amazes me after all these years that some police act like they do not know the carry laws.

OR- Are they so anti gun that it's just their way to harrass us? Makes me wonder.

I find it hard to believe that every dept hasn't discussed the carry laws by now


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:43 pm 
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JimC wrote:
...Are they so anti gun that it's just their way to harrass us? Makes me wonder.

I find it hard to believe that every dept hasn't discussed the carry laws by now


I know more than one Municipality that has (or at least had) an attitude that they don't enforce the law, they ARE the law.

(Of course, maybe Chief Vosejpka down in New Prague isn't quite as much a JBT as his predecessor, Chief Roloff or that fat bastard Officer Studer. And maybe the five ignorant officers in Apple Valley should have been able to get a free pass and be allowed to run amok when they didn't believe state law is, well... state law.

No, maybe their predecessors are all better than them. But I'm not gonna give them the benefit of the doubt. Kinda sucks, but it works both ways.)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:28 pm 
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It is just not worth it to respond to the anti-open carry amoung us.

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 Post subject: Good reference material
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:52 am 
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I understand there is still some confusion in the Law Enforcement Community on how to handle the reports of person with gun calls. As we saw in this contact everyone seemed to do a very good job and it is a great example of a learning experience for everyone.

A good example of how to remain calm and provide an ID and Carry Card and also for the Law Enforcement to review the current laws. I know in the past I've posted links to this article and it should almost be mandatory reading for all person on both sides.

http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=757&issue_id=122005

It's also a good example to insure that the call taker is getting as much information as possible such as is it just a person with a firearm in a holster or are they doing something else?


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 Post subject: Re: Good reference material
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:29 am 
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mn-firearmsfan wrote:
As we saw in this contact everyone seemed to do a very good job and it is a great example of a learning experience for everyone.


Did we read the same post?

Quote:
The Officer commanded, "Hey, you! Get over here!" Then, "Now turn around, up against the car!" This car was to my left parked next to my truck. I complied with all demands up to this point. As the Officer approached me with pistol drawn, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT FRICKEN' CONCEALED CARRY MEANS?" As he puts my hands behind my head I reply, "Yes Sir." Then he asks, "Then why are you carrying out in the open like that?" I chose my words carefully, "Well, Officer my permit says 'Permit To Carry' not 'Concealed Carry'." He says, "I DON'T CARE WHAT THE FRICKEN PERMIT SAYS! ITS CALLED 'MINNESOTA CONCEALED CARRY LAW' FOR A REASON!"


Even if an actual crime had been committed, that wouldn't have been professional behavior.

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 Post subject: Re: Good reference material
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:01 am 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
Even if an actual crime had been committed, that wouldn't have been professional behavior.


Well if they were a professional a-hole it would be.... :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:52 am 
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jdege wrote:
EastSideRich wrote:
I happen to be of the opinion that if enough of us choose to exercise this right, enough people will freak out, contact our state legislators and make a big enough stink that we will lose the right to carry all together.

I'm of the opinion that if we keep our gun ownership hidden, we're helping the anti-gunners' campaign to portray gun ownership as something rare, unusual, and perverse.

For me, the single greatest benefit of shall-issue carry laws is that it makes this twisted portrayal of gun ownership more difficult.

I'm very much in favor of open carry, as a part of a general campaign of getting gun owners out of the closet. But your fears are legitimate, which is why I think that open carry needs to be discreet.

We want open carry done in such a way so as that if someone makes a stink about it, it's the person complaining, not the person carrying, who comes off as a lunatic. And given the state of the media, these days, that's going to take some care.

So I'm all in favor of seeing folks getting arrested for open carrying while planting a tree in their own yard. It comes off as clearly a case of police over-reaction.


A big +1 here, jdege. You hit it right on.

madrevar, don't let this experience deter you from open carrying. If anything, it should encourage you, and give you confidence to continue being a good ambassador for bearing arms. I am fully of the opinion that if all permit holders in the state carried open, and no portion of the sky fell as a result, and the sun still came up each morning, people would begin to realize that there is really nothing to this.

After a number of these types of encounters, and them becoming more frequent and widespread, society, seeing it more often, would begin to change their attitudes and behavior. After enough police time has been wasted, and various sheeple's shorts have been changed because they've just seen (OMG!) open carry, society will get the idea.

Exposure breeds tolerance, and then acceptance. Open carry would do more for the second ammendment in one year than thirty years of people stuffing guns in their pants and hiding them under jackets. I applaud your efforts.

I do my own little part as best I can. Being way out in Hutchinson, I sometimes doubt how much impact I have, as there's never even the least bit of drama out my way. I have yet to be stopped by LE anywhere but in the cities. 8)

Even then, it was in a mall on Saturday. I often wonder who it was that called 911 on a guy with a wife, three elderly persons, and a baby in a stroller! :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:28 am 
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Carbide Insert wrote:
Exposure breeds tolerance, and then acceptance. Open carry would do more for the second ammendment in one year than thirty years of people stuffing guns in their pants and hiding them under jackets. I applaud your efforts.

Thats true. Look at the gay community. For them it was hidden for most of history. It seems like now there is more exposure and because of that acceptance by the population at large. They had a lot of activism and now it seems like they will soon have more rights than gun owners do. No permit fees and background checks for homosexuals to excercise their rights.

ETA: Please, no offense to anyone here, or elsewhere for that matter. I know this could be a sensitive subject for some.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:39 am 
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Maybe we should ask the gay community to start open-carrying.

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