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 Photo-Realistic Human targets at Bill's ??? or elsewhere 
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 Post subject: Photo-Realistic Human targets at Bill's ??? or elsewhere
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:03 am
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OK...I know this is ILLEGAL in Mass.

A sensitive topic of course. but below is the mugshot of the gentleman who is named in 5 armed robberies and a kidnap/ attempted rape. I live, work, shop between the locations of 2 of this guys attacks. He kidnapped a woman out for a stroll on her Birthday and she fled his van in her underwear.

If threatened you would need to shoot this guy in the face, in the eye, in the neck, ....I don't know if I would choke...looking into a "persons" eyes...should I be practicing on a photo-realistic Human target? I know they are for sale. Look into his cute little brown eyes...he doesn't look like he's possessed by Satan, Does he?...could you shoot him in the eyes to save your life?

Questions:

Is it wise?

Is it permitted at Bills/ elswhere?

It is illegal in the state of Mass.


Image

Chicago Man Charged in
S. Mpls Mugging
Victim fled van in bra and underwear
Created On: Friday, 06 Mar 2009, 1:44 PM CST

Mike Durkin
MINNEAPOLIS - A Chicago man was charged Friday in connection with a string of five aggravated robberies in Minneapolis last Sunday.

Cecil Orlando Shaw, 25, was charged with first-degree aggravated robbery and kidnapping for one of the five robberies. Shaw is suspected of involvement in all five robberies, and police said more charges are expected.

According to the criminal complaint, a woman celebrating her birthday stepped outside around 1:30 a.m. last Sunday morning to get some fresh air. Shaw approached her near 19th Ave. S. and 6th St. S., where he ordered her into a van.

Inside the van, Shaw told the woman to hand over her purse, which had her debit card, athsma inhaler, cell phone and ID. Shaw also ordered the woman take off her pants and shirt.

The victim escaped from the van in her bra and underwear, then ran to a nearby home to call 911.

The other robberies happened on the 100 block of East 59th St., the intersection of Franklin and East River Rd., the 2200 block of East 35th St. and on Wentworth Ct. East.

Image

Here's what I'm thinking of...and they're cheap too.

The company is "Law Enforcement Targets, Inc." but they will sell to civilians and gun clubs.
http://www.letargets.com/index.aspx

[/img]Image
Image


Last edited by 12smile on Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:05 am 
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Location: Suburban Twin Cities, MN
Bill's has Osama and other terrorist style color targets. Some similar to these: http://www.letargets.com/estylez_ps.aspx?searchmode=category&searchcatcontext=~1~1.1~1.1.2

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:13 am 
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Another way of putting it is I DO think using a Photo-Realistic Target would be helpful...I'll call them and ask what their policy is but also I am cautious and dont want to be freaking people out. :)

I've seen the Osama target and the Husein target but I think they are the only humanoid targets.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:41 am 
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:roll: Just use paper plates :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:24 am 
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www.letargets.com is where bill's gets theirs. LETargets have tons of targets.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:11 am 
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Both Bill's and Burnsville sell a variety of photorealistic targets. Putting up a picture of an actual, local person would be a little creepy.

I think the value of shooting at a photorealistic target is overrated. I don't think it is either necessary nor sufficient to guarantee that you will shoot at a human if necessary. That is something much more personal and emotional.

If the targets accomplished the psychological purpose you imply, it would be far too dangerous to be an LETargets "model." Millions of people around the country would be conditioned to shoot you on sight! :)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:17 am 
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I was at Bills North a year or more ago and two guys had 8 1/2 x 11 homemade sheets with the face of a person with a striking resemblance to M. Bachman. One of the guys commented that it wasn't Bachman, but instead was the other guy's ex-wife. Regardless of which "local" real person was pictured on it, seeing those guys shooting at the pic really made me wonder about the common sense of the guys in the next lane.

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 Post subject: targets
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:42 am 
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I'm of the opinion that using photo targets is an important part of
overall self-defense practice & training.

Facing a photo target will more closely approximate what you may
face on the street or in your home (not only the photo itself, but the
phyiscal size of the target as well).

If you use them, you may want to consider using "anatomy" targets as
a part of your practice. Especially those with a pelvic region like this:

http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=Q-ANT-C

The anatomy lines usually aren't readily seen unless the target is quite
close.

As one famous instuctor has suggested, if you don't stop the attack of a
predator with a couple of good hits to center of mass, YOU must make
a change. His suggestion is to fire into the pelvic region to stop the
attack.

FWIW


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:48 am 
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A standard target is designed to evaluate your shooting skills. And help improve them.
You shouldn't be using a targett for any other reason. Such as what's been posted here.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:08 pm 
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JimC wrote:
A standard target is designed to evaluate your shooting skills. And help improve them.
You shouldn't be using a targett for any other reason. Such as what's been posted here.


A variety of opinions is what I'm after. I do disagree respectfully with your opinion. After carrying a pistol in the city of Minneapolis for 5 years, I think the next level for me is hands on, in person tactical training of a broad range of skills. I really have gotten the Awareness/ Avoidance thing down after 5 years and have made major behavior changes because I carry a pistol daily.

Here's an observation:

When I went to the Letargets.com website and looked at the realistic targets one after the other I did have a reaction ...I felt an urge "to move" interesting....I hear this referred to as "Getting off the X"...you want to be a moving target NOT a stationary target. And you want to be active instead of passive. I'm beginning to understand the idea of getting inside your opponent's "OODA LOOP"... where you continually take the initiative to defeat the plans of the bad guy by keeping him off balance because HE'S become passive in having to react to your actions.

I've never had any tactictal training in self-defense confrontations...however I was an accomplished WRESTLER in High School....so subconciously viewing the realistic targets brought out the urge to move to my right and stay on my toes, keep my legs bent and flexible.

So seeing the realistic target and imagining that person as my opponent triggered behavior that is deeply practiced as a result of my training in wrestling....so hopefully my automatic response...I hear it called "muscle memory" would be to stay reactive and fluid and not freeze in fear...hope I never find out :)

I think that kind of self-defense tactical issue is not the specialty of this forum...but by asking the question here..it's helping me answer it myself.

Also I really respect the efforts of the self-defense / 2A community that I see reported here.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:16 pm 
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I believe the use of photo-realistic targets for general target practice is in poor taste and should be avoided.

It is my understanding that certain military and law-enforcement groups use such targets as part of operant conditioning to overcome people's inherent unwillingness to kill other people. Such training may be one of the necessary though unfortunate parts of being a soldier or cop. In a law enforcement context, the use of realistic human targets also includes a visible threat, and it is my understanding that they are used only on pop-up courses to teach rapid response to a threat. They are not used routinely to train for marksmanship or general gun handling.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:41 pm 
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I use targets very similar to this one.
Image
When I want to check my COM placement, I just tape a piece of printer paper (8"x11.5"), dead center.

For grins, hold up a piece of printer paper to your chest while you're standing in front of your bathroom mirror. See what I mean?

No need for a life sized pic of someone. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:50 pm 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:
They are not used routinely to train for marksmanship or general gun handling.


Good Point.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:17 pm 
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To me, paper is paper.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:41 am 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:
I believe the use of photo-realistic targets for general target practice is in poor taste and should be avoided.


+1
Also, If you had a picture of someone you know or of a public figure on a target, could that be interpreted as a terroristic threat?
How about if that person showed up at the range while you were shooting?


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