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 Posting and the law abiding Carry Permit holder 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:52 am 
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PoorSSJ wrote:
Thanks for the Info guys
I am surprised that someone teaching a class wouldn't know the laws better. My instructor was Bill Kimmel and aside from those two apparent misinterpretations of the statutes, and not giving me what I paid for (the extra range time advertised in the course description) I though he did a good job


Those are two pretty big "aside from(s)"!

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:53 am 
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:)

And, in addition to that -- and the serious error in his organization's website which probably won't affect the guy unless he travels -- what else did his instructor screw up on?

I dunno. Maybe nothing at all.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:12 pm 
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PoorSSJ wrote:
Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?


Thanks for the out loud chuckle!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:27 pm 
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Greg wrote:
PoorSSJ wrote:
Thanks for the Info guys
I am surprised that someone teaching a class wouldn't know the laws better. My instructor was Bill Kimmel and aside from those two apparent misinterpretations of the statutes, and not giving me what I paid for (the extra range time advertised in the course description) I though he did a good job


Those are two pretty big "aside from(s)"!

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?


That one got a good laugh out of me too! I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything at the time! Greg is the one who deserves the credit.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:15 am 
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I took my first class at Bills in 2004. Just took my renewal with Joel.

I do not recommend Bills. Their printed material was pretty pathetic. Obtain, and read Joel's book. It is infinitely better. Next time you take the class use one of the many competent instructors who post here. Don't waste your time or money at Bills.

Why didn't your instructor take the 5 yes vote people aside after class, and give them the desired/promised training? Talk about bait and switch. I'd definitely complain to Bills about that. Ask for a partial refund.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:19 pm 
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I wonder if this instructor was somehow confusing the church lawsuit about posting as now being the rule everywhere. Doesn’t explain his other errors of course.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:48 am 
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PoorSSJ wrote:
I recently took my renewal class at bills north. I decided on bills due to the fact that they advertised instruction on holster draw, and more range time. At the actual class, they let everyone vote on whether or not they wanted to do this, shooting an extra 50 rounds or more, and the majority voted to not do it, by a 7-5 margin. Talk about 5 unhappy people. What a Rip Off. I paid 100 at bills, where I could have taken the regular renewal class, with no additional shooting, for about 65 bucks


You got off cheap. New or renewal, makes no matter, I charge (and get) $250. On the other hand, if you want to put another 50 down range, I'll be happy to go back with you and we can burn a box together. After the class, of course.

Then again, you do get what you pay for...

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:31 am 
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Then again, you do get what you pay for...

Maybe...maybe not. There are many excellent instructors, and my ego puts myself in that category, that charge less...far less than other instructors.

There are folks that do classes for nothing (I have done several of those); there are classes that give discounts for students, spouses, military etc etc. To paint a picture that price of a class is a determinative factor in quality is, in many cases, very misleading.

Actually, I suspect it is very hard for a new shooter...a new prospective permit holder...to have any objective commentary on the quality of a class or instructor as they have nothing to compare it against. I suspect most class participants that are less experienced feel that their class and instructor were good...and I suspect ...in fact...they were.

There are many philosophical differences with instrcutors. We all may teach from the same basic template, but our experiences, our ability to communicate, to present material in a manner that is helpful to learning, all varies considerably. For example, if a person took a permit class from me, expecting that we focus on the art/technique of shooting, well..they will be sorely disappointed. Because of my background (attorney) I focus a lot on how to avoid problems...how the law works...to understand the permit law..its consequences......use of force etc etc.

But isn't that neat? Isn't it great that people have choices. I always tell my class participants that when renewal time comes, as much as I would love to see them again, I think it makes sense to take a class from someone else....to perhaps get and learn from a different perspective. That seems to have some logic to it.

But I digress.....I guess what bothers me (not on any personal level here...not a criticism of anyone particularly) is the ongoing thought that just because my business model mandates a lower price, that somehow that also means lower standards. There are inexpensive instructors that are excellent; there are expensive instructors that ..well...are not all that good.

Ask around....it won't take long to find out the names of those who have "earned" a reputation ...good or bad. Can cost of the class be an indicator? I suppose in the sense of "perceived value" that is true. Heck, I know I am worth $500 a student! And, I am sure I could do far fewer classes and have no financial impact on the bottom line. Heck, my wife says that I should charge $50,000 per student. She says you won't get many, but if you get just one a year.......... 8)

Very very few instructors make a living out of their classes. Most feel fortuneate to be doing a good job, helping people etc. And...if they can get some ammo money or a gun once in a while from their efforts, that is a plus. Now that I have retired from law and also from public school teaching, this is "my real job"....and, I do very very well thank you.

It just frosts me when, by implication, people intimate that Instructor A cannot be any good because they charge just $X per class; Instructor B must be better because they charge $2X; and Instructor C must be the best because they charge $5X.

Special Note: I will come to your home, do a special one on one class...just $10,000.... a $40,000 reduction from what my wife says I should charge. Such a deal!

Sorry for the rambling....it just frosts my butt from time to time. I will go back into my cave now.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:44 am 
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Well, Paul, since you're one of the folks I say nice things about, you know that my criticism isn't directed at you.

That said . . . there's any number of reasons why somebody might set a low price, some of which are entirely laudable.

Some, on the other hand, aren't.

And, yup, I think it's great that people have choices -- including the choice to mock the Coconut Charley (or Charlie; he's not sure how to spell -- or, as he might have it, "spelll" it) and Carlos Canopy types.

I'm working on the Carlos Canopy website, btw; Carlos, for those of you who don't know, in addition to running firearmsandwatermelons.com, also is the proprietor of a small family business, named after his parents (the original family name was "Canape"): "Sam and Ella's Canapes"...

But I digress.

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Last edited by joelr on Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:49 am 
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joelr wrote:
Well, Paul, since you're one of the folks I say nice things about, you know that my criticism isn't directed at you.

That said . . . there's any number of reasons why somebody might set a low price, some of which are entirely laudable.

Some, on the other hand, aren't.
Absolutely...understood. And, I was not directing criticism at anyone in particular....it just obviously irks me when I "feel" that low price is lumped into low quality as a determinitive factor in class content and conduct etc.

Then again, perhaps the simple solution is to charge more. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:50 am 
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phorvick wrote:
joelr wrote:
Well, Paul, since you're one of the folks I say nice things about, you know that my criticism isn't directed at you.

That said . . . there's any number of reasons why somebody might set a low price, some of which are entirely laudable.

Some, on the other hand, aren't.
Absolutely...understood. And, I was not directing criticism at anyone in particular....it just obviously irks me when I "feel" that low price is lumped into low quality as a determinitive factor in class content and conduct etc.

Then again, perhaps the simple solution is to charge more. :lol:
Well, were you to charge more, I could say that I don't know of any good, low-priced instructors . . .

But don't do it for me.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:55 am 
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joelr wrote:
phorvick wrote:
joelr wrote:
Well, Paul, since you're one of the folks I say nice things about, you know that my criticism isn't directed at you.

That said . . . there's any number of reasons why somebody might set a low price, some of which are entirely laudable.

Some, on the other hand, aren't.
Absolutely...understood. And, I was not directing criticism at anyone in particular....it just obviously irks me when I "feel" that low price is lumped into low quality as a determinitive factor in class content and conduct etc.

Then again, perhaps the simple solution is to charge more. :lol:
Well, were you to charge more, I could say that I don't know of any good, low-priced instructors . . .

But don't do it for me.


Joel...you owe me a new keyboard. It is not often that an olde Norwegian phart expels Pepsi though his nose laughing at written words! Damn....you have a way with words.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:05 am 
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Been there at work. It wasn't Pepsi though. Maybe I should get a keyboard cover as insurancefor next time. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:33 am 
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Then again, you do get what you pay for...

Which in this case, is MY time. Which I value very highly. Very.

And if Barry doesn't get me my Bail-Out check pdq, I'm going to raise my rates, again!

As to the quality of instruction being offered by others I can only say that each offers their own perspectives/experiences. Just because someone teaches differently than I do doesn't mean they're bettor or worse, IMNSHO.

How it is perceived by the individual students will probably be determined by what they bring to the class. And what they're willing to do after.

I usually charge for these little pearls of wisdom, :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:34 pm 
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After reading this thread, I got a bargin with my training.

I Got a live infomercial on holsters, traing laser guns, even floor coating services!!

And I think we even talked about the permit law. What a sad joke my class was


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