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 Good attorneys? 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:44 am 
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I'm not seeing how this "minor detail" could have been left out, if not intentionally. Your instructor was already talking about how you should call a lawyer ASAP in the event of a shooting. That's seems a pretty logical lead into "....and heh, here are some lawyers I recommend and here's why...."

That fact that it wasn't included speaks volumes about your instructors intention to detail, which is sorta his/her job.

And since as you yourself point out, there is a lot to cover, if I were you, I would be very concerned about what else I wasn't told.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:22 am 
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You're kinda sorta welcome, but the Forum isn't intended to be aftermarket support for inadequate carry permit instructors, although, certainly, some folks have tried to use it that way.


Yeah, but what is that line Souch uses?

I learn more here by accident than other places on purpose! :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:42 am 
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Long Ago LEO wrote:
Quote:
You're kinda sorta welcome, but the Forum isn't intended to be aftermarket support for inadequate carry permit instructors, although, certainly, some folks have tried to use it that way.


Yeah, but what is that line Souch uses?

I learn more here by accident than other places on purpose! :lol:
:) That's a feature, not a bug. Lots of neat stuff happens here, and a fair amount of it is definitely on the gee, we kinda stumbled into that, didn't we? side.

I like that.

As to the other stuff, that I don't like, I know I'm probably overly grouchy on the issue. My excuse is that there's been a small -- far as I know -- number of inadequate instructors (nobody who's a regular participant here) who have deliberately used both the Forum and me as their aftermarket support, and it's gotten kinda old.

Which isn't fair to anybody involved, including the lazy instructors who can't find the time to, say, put together a list of two or three phone numbers of competent criminal defense attorneys, or figure out how to help their students avoid the Ramsey Problem, or whatever.

After about the twentieth such call, I began to get peevish on the subject, and the twentieth such call was, literally, years ago.

These days, it goes about like this:

"Joel Rosenberg."

"Hi. I need to know about carrying at the Target Center?"

"Cool. I'm pretty sure we went over that in class . . . " I'm also pretty sure that you didn't take your class with me, or I'd be switching into helpful mode about now.

"Oh. I didn't take my class with you; I took it with Coconut Charlie. It's the same class, after all; you're all regulated by the state, and he charges less?"

"Oh."

"He said real nice things about you, and pointed me to your blogs?"

Why is everything a question with you? "That's nice of him."

"So, about carrying at the Target Center?"

"Well, what did Coconut Charlie say when you called him?"

"I didn't call him? I, you know, I, err, kinda got the impression that you know a lot more about this stuff than he does? That's why I'm calling you?"

"I'm honored."

"So, what about carrying at the Target Center?"

"What do the signs say there?"

"What signs?"

"The ones at the Target Center."

"I dunno. I think I saw one, once."

"Cool."

"So, can I carry at the Target Center?"

"You're thinking of carrying a loaded, concealed handgun to the Target Center? Omygod. Is that legal?"

"I thought you'd know?"

"I thought I'd know, too."

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:00 am 
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:lol:
That's a hoot!
Joel you need to record these and make a compilation. That would be a riot! It could even be edited and spliced for maximum laugh factor...

That kind of material is too good to waste!

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But it remains true that from time to time they collaborate on something that's both stupid and evil and call it bipartisanship. -Thomas E. Woods Jr.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:01 am 
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Carbide Insert wrote:
:lol:
That's a hoot!
Joel you need to record these and make a compilation. That would be a riot! It could even be edited and spliced for maximum laugh factor...

That kind of material is too good to waste!
It's not the funniest one. If there's enough demand, I'll put another one up.

I don't make this stuff up, you know.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:04 am 
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joelr wrote:
Carbide Insert wrote:
:lol:
That's a hoot!
Joel you need to record these and make a compilation. That would be a riot! It could even be edited and spliced for maximum laugh factor...

That kind of material is too good to waste!
It's not the funniest one. If there's enough demand, I'll put another one up.

I don't make this stuff up, you know.


I vote yea for another one! :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:10 am 
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mrokern wrote:
I vote yea for another one! :lol:


+1!

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But it remains true that from time to time they collaborate on something that's both stupid and evil and call it bipartisanship. -Thomas E. Woods Jr.


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 Post subject: Re: Good attorneys?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:17 am 
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There's a list of attorney's on the forum already




josh2415 wrote:
Hi, new to the forum. Just went through training last week for the multi-state CCW permit. One of the things discussed was if we ever had to legally shoot someone in self defense, that we let the police know that we're willing to cooperate, but that we want to speak through an attorney, ie, bite our tongues until we've received legal advice. I pray that I'm never placed in this situation, but should it ever happen, does anyone have any suggestions for local (MSP) attorneys specializing in self-defense issues? Thought it might a good idea to know in advance who to call, should the need ever arise.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:28 am 
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Carbide Insert wrote:
mrokern wrote:
I vote yea for another one! :lol:


+1!


I could use a laugh. :)

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 Post subject: Coconut Charlie, the Civic Center, and me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:35 am 
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Yes, this really happened, several years ago. One name has been changed, to protect the guilty.

"Joel Rosenberg."

"Hey, buddy, it's Charlie."

Sheesh. Okay, what is it now? Another one of these, hey, just read the directions on the heel for how to pour piss out of the boot? "Okey. What can I do for you?"

"I'm going to the Civic Center tonight. Kenny Chesney's playing."

"Sorry; I'm kinda busy." And I'd be happy to listen to Kenny Chesney, if the other choice was a flexible sigmoidoscopy. Barely.

"Uh, no. That's not, I mean, my wife and I are going, and I want to know if we can carry there. Not a good neighborhood."

"Hey, Charlie, you're not just a carry permit instructor, like me -- you run a certifying organization. What do you tell your instructors about the posting stuff pursuant to 624.714 and the reasonable request and demand for compliance?"

Long pause. "Huh?"

Take me now, Lord.
Deep breath. "Okay. Is it posted?"

"I think they got some sorta signs, I dunno."

"Well, read the book. If it's not properly posted, you can carry there; if it isn't, and you're given a demand to leave, you've got to leave or pay a fine."

"Okay. Thanks."

Click.

An hour later. "Joel Rosenberg."

"Hey, buddy, it's Charlie, again. You gave me bum information." He was not happy.

Gee, and what a shame that would be. "How so?"

"Well, since you weren't all that clear, I called up the Civic Center and talked to the security guy."

"The head mall ninja or just one of the bottom-feeding mall ninjas?"

"Huh?"

This beating my head against the wall will feel so good when it stops.
"Well, what did you tell him and what did he say?"

"Well, I gave him my name. Only polite."

"Of course."

"And I asked what the deal was about carrying at the Civic Center. He said their regulations don't allow it."

"Oh."

Long pause. "So you gave me bum information."

"Nah. I didn't tell you what the head mall ninja at the Civic Center thinks their regulations are; I told you what it says in Minn. Stat. 624.714. Which you should know, kinda?"

"Yeah, but he says that they don't allow carry there. And I guess you're telling me that they're supposed to."

"No, I'm not telling you what they're supposed to put in their regulation book. Just what the law is."

"So you're saying that they got it wrong?"

Yes, Mr. Keen Eye for the Obvious.
"Well, yeah."

"Well, somebody should straighten them out."

"Get right on it. Gotta go."

Two days later.

"Hey, buddy, it's Charlie."

"My day is now complete."

"You call the Civic Center yet?"

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:40 am 
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Thanks I needed that! :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:41 am 
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Joel, thank you for providing a valuable public service -- making us laugh. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:45 am 
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I really don't know whether to laugh or cry, Joel.

I opted to laugh, since you humored us, but still...


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 Post subject: Re: Good attorneys?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:51 am 
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josh2415 wrote:
mrokern wrote:
Welcome to the forum, by the way, and please realize that I'm in no way coming down on your head with this post.

With all due respect, it is the instructor's job to NOT miss minor details.

Granted, the attorney's numbers aren't required, so they can't be considered a missed detail (technically). When it comes to the required material, a missed detail can do students a grave disservice.

-Mark

As I mentioned in my last post (which I edited), there's a chance that the info was in the packet that I received, but haven't taken the time to look through thoroughly.

While I have the ear of instructors, also with all due respect, a class such as this which prepares individuals for safe and legal handgun carry/use should be more than a just a crash course. In the same way that cramming for an exam the night before is an ineffective way to learn class material, to be done right, I would think that this material should be presented over SEVERAL days, if not weeks. Life and death hang in the balance, potentially.


That’s a good thought but most people couldn’t afford it nor do they want it. We are lucky sometimes to get people into a 6-8 hour class. A lot opt for the least expensive shortest length class unfortunately and they end up getting exactly what they pay for. There are additional classes a person can take to hone their skills and advance their knowledge but as I stated they cost money.

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 Post subject: Re: Good attorneys?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:35 am 
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havegunjoe wrote:
josh2415 wrote:
mrokern wrote:
Welcome to the forum, by the way, and please realize that I'm in no way coming down on your head with this post.

With all due respect, it is the instructor's job to NOT miss minor details.

Granted, the attorney's numbers aren't required, so they can't be considered a missed detail (technically). When it comes to the required material, a missed detail can do students a grave disservice.

-Mark

As I mentioned in my last post (which I edited), there's a chance that the info was in the packet that I received, but haven't taken the time to look through thoroughly.

While I have the ear of instructors, also with all due respect, a class such as this which prepares individuals for safe and legal handgun carry/use should be more than a just a crash course. In the same way that cramming for an exam the night before is an ineffective way to learn class material, to be done right, I would think that this material should be presented over SEVERAL days, if not weeks. Life and death hang in the balance, potentially.


That’s a good thought but most people couldn’t afford it nor do they want it. We are lucky sometimes to get people into a 6-8 hour class. A lot opt for the least expensive shortest length class unfortunately and they end up getting exactly what they pay for. There are additional classes a person can take to hone their skills and advance their knowledge but as I stated they cost money.


There is no evidence...none...nada..zilch...nill...that in any State that does not require a class, or at most a very basic class, that there exists any statistical difference in the legal conduct of permit holders. None.

"Feelings" should be left out of the IIA equation.

Clearly in some States, in order to get a palatable statute passed, there were standards, course content, course of range exercise fire etc. But, the permit holders in those States are no more likely to violate law than those that have as their permit requirement the most minimal (or no) pre-requisite criteria.

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