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Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - Carry in US Forest Service Buildings
 
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 Carry in US Forest Service Buildings 
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 Post subject: Carry in US Forest Service Buildings
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:20 pm 
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I tried the search and didn't find anything regarding this specific question.
Mods, if this is the wrong place for this feel free to move it.

I own property in northern Minnesota that is bordered on three sides by
National Forest land. Due to the shared borders there are times when discussions take place between myself and the U.S. Forest Service on matters such as fences and trails. As an aside let me say that in my dealings with them I have always found them to be professional,service
orientated and genuinely concerned with having a good working relationship with the private landowners in the area.

My contact with them is sometimes personal contact where is go to the Forest Service office. Being that they are federal can they ban me from carrying in their building (federal regulation trumps State law)

I don't remember if the building was posted the last time I was there
which was last fall.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:32 pm 
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I lived in Superior National Forest for years but every time I went into a USFS I left my gun in the truck.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:34 pm 
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USFS is federal property and carrying there is one of the no no's.

I would leave the gun in the truck if you want to maintain that friendly relationship.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:57 pm 
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I have always left the gun in the truck when I entered their building.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:23 pm 
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The relevant federal statute is 18USC930:

Quote:
Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

<...>

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -

<...>

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:26 pm 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
The relevant federal statute is 18USC930:

Quote:
Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

<...>

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -

<...>

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
It may be relevant, but one would rely upon that at your peril.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:34 pm 
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Quote:
Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

<...>

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -

<...>

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.


So no carrying in a U.S. Forest Service building. I thought that was the case which is why I have always left the gun in the truck on previous vists(and will continue to do so)

I know that you can be in possession of a firearm on National forest land while hunting. would "other lawful porposes" include carrying a handgun in accodance with MN Stat. 624.714?

phorvick wrote:
Quote:
It may be relevant, but one would rely upon that at your peril.


I take it you would not advise carrying a hangun outside of a hunting situation on National forest land.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:27 am 
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I believe that he means a USFS building. You could always open carry on the land.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:34 am 
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I take it you would not advise carrying a handgun outside of a hunting situation on National forest land.

No...not at all. It is my understanding that it is permissible to carry a handgun into the "forest" regardless of hunting so long as the underlying State so allows. The problem is carrying into a "facility".

If one takes the quoted exception #3 on its face, that seems to suggest that if your reason for being in the facility is "lawful", that carry then would be legal. That is not the interpretation that the arresting authorities will take. If you were to be that test case, plan on thousands...perhaps hundreds of thousands...of dollars in legal fees in the hope that the US Sup.Ct. agrees with the interpretation.

Further, I would need to be pointed to a case that says that carry into the forrested area includes any federal facility within the forest. I believe the prudent thing, absent clear and convincing authority, is that the carrying into the building should not be done.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:30 pm 
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Looks like you had it about right phorvick. Which was also pretty much what I thought.
Just to put this one to bed here it is from the source:

Quote:
You are correct that you may carry a firearm on National Forest lands. You may not carry a firearm in a USFS building even with a permit. "Other lawful purposes" would not include simply having a carry permit.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have more questions.


Kent Ledermann
Law Enforcement Officer
Chippewa National Forest

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:54 pm 
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parap1445 wrote:
Looks like you had it about right phorvick. Which was also pretty much what I thought.
Just to put this one to bed here it is from the source:

Quote:
You are correct that you may carry a firearm on National Forest lands. You may not carry a firearm in a USFS building even with a permit. "Other lawful purposes" would not include simply having a carry permit.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have more questions.


Kent Ledermann
Law Enforcement Officer
Chippewa National Forest


That is his interpretation. "Other lawful purposes" is not as clear as he would like you to believe. OTOH, the PITA comes from interpretations like this.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:00 pm 
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princewally wrote:
Quote:
Kent Ledermann
Law Enforcement Officer
Chippewa National Forest

That is his interpretation. "Other lawful purposes" is not as clear as he would like you to believe.

Of course, he is also the guy who does the arresting. So, if you plan on carrying, good luck to you, he has already indicated the direction you will probably be headed.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:05 pm 
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parap 1445:

Did (or could) Ledermann cite any case law defining "other lawful purposes"? That would be the real answer not his opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:14 pm 
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Mr Ledermann did not cite any case law relating to his statement.
The email I quoted was the complete response. The only thing I redacted was the the "Mr XXXX" at the begining and his contact info at the end. I think I will just continue to leave my gun in the truck when visiting their office (what is that about test cases and somebody else?)

Since he is a public employee in a government office I'm not voilating any privacy by giving out the contact info if anyone is interested in following this any further so here it is:
Quote:
Kent Ledermann
Law Enforcement Officer
Chippewa National Forest
1037 Division Street
PO Box 308
Deer River, MN 56636
office: (218)246-3478
mobile: (414)232-4938
fax: (218)246-9743

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:32 am 
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DeanC wrote:
princewally wrote:
Quote:
Kent Ledermann
Law Enforcement Officer
Chippewa National Forest

That is his interpretation. "Other lawful purposes" is not as clear as he would like you to believe.

Of course, he is also the guy who does the arresting. So, if you plan on carrying, good luck to you, he has already indicated the direction you will probably be headed.


That's where the "PITA" comes from.

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