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Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - Spoke to my pastor about carry at my church/school/day care.
 
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 Spoke to my pastor about carry at my church/school/day care. 
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 Post subject: Spoke to my pastor about carry at my church/school/day care.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:06 pm 
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The church I attend has a large building that includes a private Christian school (K-8), day care, and church offices as well as the sanctuary. I've been carrying on Sundays to services for a while, but during the week is a different story- it's not legal to carry on school grounds without permission.

So today, I was meeting with one of the pastors about some other things today and informed him I had a LTC permit and would like the school administrations permission to carry there. (My son starts there next year.)

He wasn't immediately dismissive, but evidently I'm the first one to ask. The church isn't posted and evidently no one else carrying has fessed up!

We'll see what happens.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:34 pm 
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Hopefully not off topic:

I've wondered about this myself. My girlfriend and I have been attending a church recently that has a school attached to it, too. Is it legal to carry in the sanctuary? I've no reason to go into the school, but is the church part considered to be on school grounds?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:56 pm 
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Subd. 1d.Possession on school property; penalty.

(a) Except as provided under paragraphs (c) and (e), whoever possesses, stores, or keeps a dangerous weapon or uses or brandishes a replica firearm or a BB gun while knowingly on school property is guilty of a felony and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than two years or to payment of a fine of not more than $5,000, or both.

(b) Whoever possesses, stores, or keeps a replica firearm or a BB gun on school property is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

(c) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) or (b), it is a misdemeanor for a person authorized to carry a firearm under the provisions of a permit or otherwise to carry a firearm on or about the person's clothes or person in a location the person knows is school property. Notwithstanding section 609.531, a firearm carried in violation of this paragraph is not subject to forfeiture.

(d) As used in this subdivision:

(1) "BB gun" means a device that fires or ejects a shot measuring .18 of an inch or less in diameter;

(2) "dangerous weapon" has the meaning given it in section 609.02, subdivision 6;

(3) "replica firearm" has the meaning given it in section 609.713; and

(4) "school property" means:

(i) a public or private elementary, middle, or secondary school building and its improved grounds, whether leased or owned by the school;

(ii) a child care center licensed under chapter 245A during the period children are present and participating in a child care program;

(iii) the area within a school bus when that bus is being used by a school to transport one or more elementary, middle, or secondary school students to and from school-related activities, including curricular, cocurricular, noncurricular, extracurricular, and supplementary activities; and

(iv) that portion of a building or facility under the temporary, exclusive control of a public or private school, a school district, or an association of such entities where conspicuous signs are prominently posted at each entrance that give actual notice to persons of the school-related use.

(e) This subdivision does not apply to:

(1) active licensed peace officers;

(2) military personnel or students participating in military training, who are on-duty, performing official duties;

(3) persons authorized to carry a pistol under section 624.714 while in a motor vehicle or outside of a motor vehicle to directly place a firearm in, or retrieve it from, the trunk or rear area of the vehicle;

(4) persons who keep or store in a motor vehicle pistols in accordance with section 624.714 or 624.715 or other firearms in accordance with section 97B.045;

(5) firearm safety or marksmanship courses or activities conducted on school property;

(6) possession of dangerous weapons, BB guns, or replica firearms by a ceremonial color guard;

(7) a gun or knife show held on school property;

(8) possession of dangerous weapons, BB guns, or replica firearms with written permission of the principal or other person having general control and supervision of the school or the director of a child care center; or

(9) persons who are on unimproved property owned or leased by a child care center, school, or school district unless the person knows that a student is currently present on the land for a school-related activity.

(f) Notwithstanding section 471.634, a school district or other entity composed exclusively of school districts may not regulate firearms, ammunition, or their respective components, when possessed or carried by nonstudents or nonemployees, in a manner that is inconsistent with this subdivision.


So...

If you stay in the area of the buildings that is STRICTLY used for church functions, or you leave it in your car, you are OK. Otherwise, I wouldn't want to be the test case.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:05 pm 
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I thought we'd had this discussion before and the end result was something like...

Quote:
It depends but it sounds like a really interesting test case for me to follow.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:59 pm 
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This came up during my renewal class with Joel a few weeks ago:

Good to go if you stay in the parking-lot and sanctuary -

Stay away from the Sunday school rooms!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:31 pm 
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am i reading this wrong or under section C does it not say, that if you have a P2C and you carry on school grounds, that the crime is a misdemeanor and your weapon is not subject to forfeiture?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:00 pm 
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Yup, but you can spend time in jail for a misdemeanor, and give a sheriff a good reason to deny your permit application in the future.

DTDK wrote:
am i reading this wrong or under section C does it not say, that if you have a P2C and you carry on school grounds, that the crime is a misdemeanor and your weapon is not subject to forfeiture?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:54 am 
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I'm taking a risk as an instructor asking for advice like this but I'd really appreciate people's rationale and any case law or relevant info to help decrypt this. Especially Mnlitig8r, Joelr, or Kimberman. I've given this issue some thought and read the applicable law. I've been reading it VERY conservatively for some time now and advising the same based upon:

Quote:
(4) "school property" means:

(i) a public or private elementary, middle, or secondary school building and its improved grounds, whether leased or owned by the school;


Note that the Child care is the one exempted for "when kids are present"
Quote:
(ii) a child care center licensed under chapter 245A during the period children are present and participating in a child care program;



It's tempting to try and apply the temporary use section except that (i) specifically covers leased.
Quote:
(iv) that portion of a building or facility under the temporary, exclusive control of a public or private school, a school district, or an association of such entities where conspicuous signs are prominently posted at each entrance that give actual notice to persons of the school-related use.


The way I read it is that the school is a school 24/7/365. How do you make the split for a dual use facility? Community Center / Daycare is easy because of the present and participating portion. Church and Daycare the same. But Church and School .... Not so much.

I suspect your attorney would make the separate uses argument but that would be AFTER some event and on the clock.

Fortunately, my Church has a separate school building. But which portion of the property or parking lot is school controlled? The church uses the whole parking lot during services. I park on the street.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:10 am 
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Since the parking lot is specifically dealt with in the law, I don't worry about that one.

The 'dividing line' in our church is an electronic security door for the school portion that is active 6a-6p.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:55 am 
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https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=609.66

Am I correct that a permit holder can bring a weapon onto school property as long as it stays in the vehicle?

(3) persons authorized to carry a pistol under section 624.714 while in a motor vehicle or outside of a motor vehicle to directly place a firearm in, or retrieve it from, the trunk or rear area of the vehicle;


Does anyone know what sidewalks on school property are considered? Like a sidewalk that borders a major road.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:04 pm 
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plblark wrote:
The way I read it is that the school is a school 24/7/365. How do you make the split for a dual use facility? Community Center / Daycare is easy because of the present and participating portion. Church and Daycare the same. But Church and School .... Not so much.

I suspect your attorney would make the separate uses argument but that would be AFTER some event and on the clock.

Fortunately, my Church has a separate school building. But which portion of the property or parking lot is school controlled? The church uses the whole parking lot during services. I park on the street.


I don't believe it matters where you park as long as you leave your firearm in the vehicle.

Do you know if your church leases the school building? If they just allow the school to operate on their property I believe this portion of the law better applies:

(iv) that portion of a building or facility under the temporary, exclusive control of a public or private school, a school district, or an association of such entities where conspicuous signs are prominently posted at each entrance that give actual notice to persons of the school-related use.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:56 pm 
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gyrfalcon wrote:
plblark wrote:
The way I read it is that the school is a school 24/7/365. How do you make the split for a dual use facility? Community Center / Daycare is easy because of the present and participating portion. Church and Daycare the same. But Church and School .... Not so much.

I suspect your attorney would make the separate uses argument but that would be AFTER some event and on the clock.

Fortunately, my Church has a separate school building. But which portion of the property or parking lot is school controlled? The church uses the whole parking lot during services. I park on the street.


I don't believe it matters where you park as long as you leave your firearm in the vehicle.

Do you know if your church leases the school building? If they just allow the school to operate on their property I believe this portion of the law better applies:

(iv) that portion of a building or facility under the temporary, exclusive control of a public or private school, a school district, or an association of such entities where conspicuous signs are prominently posted at each entrance that give actual notice to persons of the school-related use.

Seems to me that he carries in church. You cant carry in a school parking lot, so that is why he parks on the street.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:09 pm 
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You can have the firearm in your car, or transfer it directly to/from the trunk, whether it is a church or school parking lot.

You can take it in to church, as churches are not specifically excluded (but are allowed to post like any business).

You cannot take it into a school. The school leases the space from the church.

Since I don't want to get in trouble with anything, until I receive permission I'll leave it in the car or just stay in the portion of the buildings outside the area leased by the school.

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