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Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - Washington 250,000 / Mn. 60,000 =4x # of permits Why ???
 
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 Washington 250,000 / Mn. 60,000 =4x # of permits Why ??? 
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 Post subject: Re: Some history requested
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:15 pm 
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Folks, bear in mind that this was not just a history, political science and law lecture, though it was that, too. It was, pretty much, the Minnesota carry version of getting a seminar on the Constitution, presented by either Thomas Jefferson or John Adams (you may imagine Professor Olson, in this analogy, as being the other one).

Is this a great forum, or what?

David Gross wrote:
Carbide Insert sent me a note, yesterday, calling my attention to this thread. At his invitation, I chime in with MY view of the history of the $100 maximum and the training requirement according to a minimum, standard, curriculum. I'll stand debate and correction from those who claim to know better, but "Hell, I was there!"

<...>

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 Post subject: Rights and Licensing
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 4:34 pm 
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1911fan wrote:
David. I will agree only when other Rights are accepted when fees are paid. There is no difference. Do reporters have fees or required training before they can report. If there was a difference then Vermont would not have worked as well as it has.

Bringing up unskilled and untrained hypothetical people causing mayhem is a false trail. The kinds of responsible people who are legal to carry under a Vermont style law are just that. Responsible and legal.


That said. I do appreciate the efforts you both (Prof. Joe and you) put in to pass as good as a Bill as you did.


Well, you, 1911 Fan, are absolutely . . . well, absolute. And that works in Vermont and the Alaska, and nowhere else. I also believe that "my birth certificate is my permit to carry," because 1) I am a US Citizen, and 2) because I exist and am sentient. But that is NOT the environment in which we exist, here, in the Socialist Peoples State of Minnesota. And THAT means that, for the purposes of licensing/regulating carry permits (you CAN deny that as unconstitutional, if you want - but see where it gets you in Minnesota or before SCOTUS which APPROVED the licensing but said that "Catch-22" was not allowed), even with what you consider a BS hypothetical, they get to set some minimum standards in pursuit of a perceived "public safety" impact in a "light touch" rather than a "white knuckle" fashion in order to achieve some assurance of minimum competence. Same for Plumbers, roofers, contractors, doctors, lawyers, bakers, and candlestick makers. "Quality assurance." You are about 100 years too late. I don't like it, either, and it seems like the camel's nose under the tent or the boiling of a frog. BUT, But, but . . . it also means that the somewhat light and "reasonable" standards that have been accepted ARE, in fact, working, because we haven't had any "problems" in 6 years, so far. THAT FACT limits any possible argument that the standards need to be tightened.

As far as reporters go, you have a very logical point; just not a very good one, because it lacks any reference to factual reality called "reality" on this planet, in this galaxy, in this universe, as we understand it. See New York Times v. Sullivan. Last I checked, bad reporting didn't foul the drinking water, kill anybody, cause buildings to fall down on the public, etc. Believe it or not, Mr. Free Market, there is a market check and balance on shitty reporting. What if nobody buys the paper, or everybody turns the dial, or nobody clicks the web page? What if everybody decided that the reporter has no credibility or is out of bounds? Nobody is forced to read or to listen: nobody is a "captive audience." But the "impact" IS greater, and more immediate, when and if you're going along, minding your own business and a "stray," negligently discharged, unnecessarily discharged, or badly guided (unguided?) projectile smashes into you and/or yours. Your options are limited, and you are "captive" of circumstances not of your own making. Your freedom of choice, your life, liberty, and property, has been impaired, as a member of the public. Don't you think that someone ought to be minimally schooled in the ramifications of, the basis for, and the reasoning (policy/law) concerning the proper discharge of a firearm in a public place, before such risks are undertaken?

Do we have some unthinking, short-sighted, totally self-obsessed, selfish, excitable, over-reactive, irresponsible, socially and intellectually maladroit (did I say, "immature?"), volatile, oppositional, with a sense of absolute entitlement, individuals who apply for permits to carry? Hell yes! I encounter them often, all too often, in my practice, when the Sheriff has denied them.

They often start out the conversation with "I got your name off the internet" or "so-and-so said that you'll do this for me," or "you've got to help me," and start out with a list of demands upon me, and complaints about the Sheriff, personally, and the law, in general, also demanding that I should drop EVERYTHING, RFN, and take care of it, "yesterday." They also, usually, tell me what the law is, because they read "it" on the Internet (not the statutes or a case) and know what their rights are. There is no mention of seeking "advice" or "counsel;" and, of course, there is no mention of retaining me or asking about any fees, because they are absolutely convinced that I "owe" it to them to serve them, because I was active in getting the law passed and need them in order to continue to make my point. Hell, they're doing ME a favor! They want a "mouthpiece" for their frustration; for free. All I have to do is to follow their instructions and do exactly what they say, because they know it all.

It feels exactly like grade school, well below the age of 14 level and the beginning of "judgment" and reasoning. It's all emotional, a hissy-fit. They talk in conclusions without factual or historical basis and have convenient lapses of recollection as to facts, chronology, and causation. A dead-bang giveaway is when they tell me "that was a long time ago" concerning an important or significant event in their life that we later determine, factually, happened within the last 2 years. They live ONLY in the immediate present, very immediate past (this morning?), with no thought to the future; and, therefore, have no perspective. They, literally, can't see beyond their noses. I've got dogs with better perspective and better reasoning; and Pavlov WAS right. These are not "reasonable" people; they have very little reasoning in their lives, with the exception of explanations, excuses, and denials ("It doesn't matter."). All too many of them are "Living Dead," Zombies, and "Brain dead." I kid you not! YOU don't see them; I do. When a working synapse actually fires, it's a "shot heard 'round the world." You can't fix "stupid," and instinct is no substitute.

There ARE some good, supportable, justifiable denials, which I can, usually, determine in a few minutes based on publicly available criminal histories and some basic review of a denial letter and it's factual basis. That's the reason that the law requires a minimum standard of a written denial letter. It is designed to open communication. My Sheriff does not issue them lightly. Often, but by no means always, he'll reverse himself when additional documentation is submitted. I can think of one, recently, where an irresponsible kid, based on his record, entered the military, served in Iraq and Afghanistan, and came out a mature, decorated combat veteran, with all of his fingers and toes, and limbs, and a mature perspective on life. It went from "danger to self and others" to "Congratulations." He was, in fact, a different person. And the Sheriff was NOT wrong to be very off-put by this kid's documented history of behavior of self-absorbed, reckless show-boating, drinking, disorderly conduct: the beginning of life in jail, on the installment plan. He actually "shaped up, shipped out, and flew right."

I don't demand a "hat in hand" supplication and/or the offer to perform unspeakable sexual acts upon me. By no means! But some showing of understanding and perspective, some maturity, some questioning, some understanding that it isn't a personal attack, an asking whether I might be able to advise and to help them, is a big plus. Often, I'll advise them, for free, on how to do it themselves, by correcting a mistaken impression that is simple and obvious, especially if we can "get there" in 1/2 hour or less. I have a lot of "good will" points in the bank, my friend. In the trade, we call it "pro-bono." I have to be persuaded by the circumstances to do pro-bono work, and it is apparently reasonably easy to do. I'm not about taking people's money simply because I can demand it.

As someone who was involved in the discussions over the drafting of the MCPPA with a perspective of the "trench warfare" aspect of the implementation and application of the old law, both as a prosecutor and a defense attorney, I was familiar with and anticipated as many of the "tricks" as I could. I did the best that I could, but as the old saying goes: "If you love sausage and/or the law, you should watch neither of them being made." It'll drive you crazy; and you'll want to barf. We did well and made our constitutional perspective and principles very clear. And the Sheriff Association had a representative at the discussions who was not a politician or an ideologue, but a seasoned, thoughtful, intelligent, and experienced individual who really gave a shit about his obligations to both protect and to serve the public interest and to protect, preserve, and defend the constitution. We NEVER engaged in "High-ball/Low-ball" negotiations. It was high-level stuff in a respectful, understanding, and reasoned on the facts, totally-professional manner. We reached a solution to a mutually-agreed-to set of considerations, not on the basis of power, but upon principle and the factual bases for concern, all with a long-term perspective and desire to make it work. I for one, am happy to have made Sheriff Steve Borchardt's acquaintance, have the highest respect for him personally and professionally, and wish him well in his retirement. We done good.

The fact of the matter is that we could, maybe, have pushed our power around and had an extreme and unreasonable law passed that established a permit to carry system that was essentially a "no permit to carry" system, instead of "shall issue." As soon as something, anything, happened that involved an untrained and/or incompetent permit to carry holder, the overreaction and "pendulum" would have undone our gains and pushed us, you can bet, further back than where we started with the 1975 law. As it is, the few incidents that HAVE occurred have a reasonable context that generates an understanding that the system is "working," not "broken." "It works way much better than not; nothing is perfect" is a good place to be, when it comes to the regulation of rights. It errs on the side of freedom, whereas the liberals like the word, "insure" or "ensure."We've been in the extremes before, under the old law; and that system was demonstrably broken, corrupt, and unfair. NOBODY is saying that about what we have, now. In fact, most of our former "opposition" is on board with what we've done. And a lot of them have permits.

Only the "fringe element" still remains; you, know, CSM, Brady Campaign, etc.. And they have marginalized themselves playing "Chicken Little," discredited themselves so badly, that we endure them somewhat calmly under the rubric of free speech and the right to petition government for redress of grievances. But we make them prove the grievance, and that's where they fail, yet again. Just because they have a right to say it does NOT mean that they have a right to be taken seriously. We have the high ground, now, the principled ground, and the experiential basis to support the policy, functionality, and effectiveness of our law. Even the Democrats are split on the issue; only the Metrocrats believe their own stuff or put on a show of doing so, simply in order to get Heather Martens out of their ears so they can spend time doing something really useful, like not digging the state further into the hole, if possible. Let's keep it that way. OK?

I cannot, and will not, say that you are "absolutely wrong," because you're not. However, in the real world in which we live, where EVERYTHING is, or seems to be, regulated, "for our own good" (really frosts me), even that which should not be regulated, you ARE going to lose the argument, here or in SCOTUS, that there is NO basis for regulating a permit to carry system so lightly, minimally, and reasonably in the "interests of public safety" that it should be declared unconstitutional. NO WAY! BECAUSE it is so "reasonable" and limited in scope, impact, and based on the Minnesota Educational Assumption (MEA), as Prof. Joe Olson has said, that "education" and "exposure" IS THE ANSWER to every potential or imaginable problem known to mankind. That assumption is based on the belief that education is addressed to intelligence, reasoning, and respect for, and of, the individual. And that is all that our qualification standards require, because it's about judgment and personal responsibility to a minimum exposure level. In a very real sense, "fore-warned is fore-armed." The training requirements for a permit to carry are arguably less onerous than those for a driver's license, which is a privilege, and not a right. And that's the way it should be, the narrowest and lightest impact possible that can directly address the perceived (potential?) problem. It kind of makes you think, doesn't it?

AND THAT IS THE POINT!!


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Mr. Gross noted: "We did well and made our constitutional perspective and principles very clear. "

AMEN!

There are things that we want to be ABC, but reality dictates XYZ. Our XYZ is PFG.

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 5:48 pm 
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I am aware that my views may not be politically viable, that doesn't mean they are wrong.

I agree, that given the political winds that were blowing at the time David and Joe worked their butts off to get us what we got, we got all we could possibly hope for, and perhaps a lot more, due solely to their work and skill.

It just irks me that the ideal of a VT carry model is disregarded so completely. I would guess that VT has a very similar outlook in almost all political views as does MN, it probably has the same views on education, unions, labor, farm, crime as we do. with very probably the same dispersion give or take of political leanings between the peoples.




I guess I find the problem grows out the concept that my life is somehow less defensible or valuable when I leave my home. Pretty much any non felon adult in Minnesota is allowed the right of armed self defense from the inside of their home. What makes the difference between standing Inside your front door, to standing on your front step, your sidewalk, or your car? We have I believe extended the rights of expectations of privacy to places outside the home, but we do not allow the protection of our most private nature, that is our security.

People for some reason are trusted to own a gun in their home, to carry it during hunting season, and to use that weapon to defend them selves at home withhout the "benefit" of testing or training. I want to see a case where a homeowner was prosecuted for shooting someone who was breaking into the home, or attempting to harm the family, and was using a legally bought weapon. I don't see that happening. That weapon was just as dangerous as any weapon carried by a permitted individual. Yet because it was kept at home, it was legal.

Now if that same person, used that same weapon, to defend themselves from a carjacking but has no permit, there is a fair chance they will be prosecuted for carrying without a permit, even if the rest of the shoot was completely defensible. Why?

Is the person less valuable when they are out of the house? Are they operating under a different set of Rights ?



I am not saying I have the power of law, nor the highest degree of legal education, but I am not uneducated, and I find that just saying, well we gave rights away 100 years ago, so live with it today, as completely contrary to the concept of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. Every Generation that is born should be covered by the same rights as the generation that wrote the Constitution, and the ones who presided over its amendments.

I understand the concepts of Political Exigencies. I am only speaking about what I feel is RIGHT not what is practical. I still see the invasion of the State into the area of my rights as Wrong. I just see "shall not be infringed" as a pretty clear and unambiguous statement, I do not believe it was ever written anywhere else in the Constitution, and I believe that was done for a reason. The Framers were not stupid. They spent a lot of time in the study of words and writing, far more then we do today, because it was how ALL commerce and conversation over distance was done. Get the words wrong and you lost a fortune. Pretty big impetus to get it right.

regarding Reporting, I only ask you to read about the Rwanda Genocide, to see what reporting can do. Or to whom is in the White House, I can not believe that had BHO been treated the same way as McCain, that he would have been elected. I have seen companies killed in the papers, with no recourse, after someone writes a hit piece and kills a 3 generation old small business.

As to the people who carry who should not, that is a situation we all face. I dare say the ill equipped teen girl who pops out kids with no ability to care for them, creates more damage than that one person who maybe shouldn't have a permit, never mind a gun. Same with voting, Its a right, therefore people vote, and a hell of a lot of them who do scare the piss out of me, but we have to let the basis of one man one vote continue.

I deal with people all the time thru work who have absolutely no effing redeeming qualities, who are pumping kids out as fast as then can all for that extra 312 dollars a month. Do we say, hey, you need education to breed, a certificate to recreate?

Do we have Civics tests for voting? no. Do we have poll taxes, land right polls? no, so every body who's 18 and not a felon can vote. IF you have that responsibility allowed to you, you should have the same responsibility of carrying a weapon to defend yourself.






I know the goal I speak of is Polly annish in the the extreme, but I do feel that too much is being made of legislation, controls, etc, where the freedom of the individual is just being eaten away. every day, something is taken away, for our own good as you say, or for the children, or this happened once, it can never happen again.


I am not disagreeing with you, only saying we need to go further, to push harder for a complete return to individual rights. Fighting Statism is the real goal I guess.

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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 1:24 am 
Yes, *that* David Gross
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1911 Fan: WELL SAID! Really well said. You are not wrong! "I feel your pain!" - Bill Clinton. But I mean it.

You ignore the difference in starting points and "context" and their importance in human events.

Vermont has never had a carry licensing law. And they see no good, or compelling, reason to change. Good people, those independent, individualistic, respectful of others Yankees who still believe that good fences make good neighbors, because they remind YOU to keep YOUR nose out of your neighbor's affairs by attending to your boundaries. It's the same perspective of those who understand that zoo fences keep the people out and away from the good life; not the animals in.

Pennsylvania used to have repressive gun laws, until Michael Slavonic and the crew (West Allegheny Sportsmen?) from Pittsburgh (an industrial, blue collar, hunting and fishing, STEEL MILL town) were able to overwhelm the Quakers and liberal elitists in Philadelphia; and the Amish (That's Pennsylvania Deutsch, not Dutch) didn't give a shit, as long as you left them alone. They now have a shall issue system, with some training, or proof of another permit that they can honor. I went to an Ivy League school (Skimmer Hats in the Spring on the banks of the Schuylkill River, crew racing, old school tie, handball and squash under the stadium, Boolah-Boolah) in Philly, 1967 - 1971. I came to know Lancaster County and the Amish as well as the Yankees in Connecticut, upstate New York, Western Massachusetts, Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire in my travels by small plane that I piloted. It was another era, before energy scarcity, "liability" in the air (contrary to Pfalsgraff v. Long Island Railroad), and high prices controlled by OPEC. Malthus WAS right: we have at least 2 billion too many people on the rock.

Minnesota did not have a gun control law until 1975, except in Home Rule Charter Cities of the First Class (MPLS, SP, Duluth) which were, at the time, considered the equal of the state (unless the state decided to say otherwise, which it did, in 1985, with preemption, because of City abuses, just like the Chiefs in 1996 - 2003), and that came in a paroxysm of anti-war, anti-gun, socialist, "pacifism" and "baby-boomer" (who could, now, vote their liberal arts degrees) idealism that government control was the key to Utopian peace and prosperity, that non-discrimination meant an enforced egalitarianism, and who believed, for the next few years, in the "church" of the government. Besides, Richard Nixon had been in office; which was reason enough to reject everything he stood for, because he was such a crooked, lying, sack-o-shit.

We, simply, are NOT going back to any unlicensed, unpermitted carry, here in the land of the Scandinavian Social Democrats named Ole, Lena, Sven, and Torvold (The German Social Democrats were called the NAZIs). Just as Pennsylvania did not, was not able to, go back to "no permit required" carry a la VT. We have experienced a paradigm shift in the last 40 years that prevents beaming ourselves back without a bloody revolution. I don't know anyone who is willing to risk, or wants to try, blowing everything up and starting all over again, "afresh." We find it easier, and less risky, more economical, to modify the foundation and to engineer a new balance. In 2003, we had a bloodless coup in the MCPPA, and which caused a disturbance in the force so subtle that no one has seen the loose ball on the field or has picked up the ball and run with it into the arena or stadium and started changing the rules, replacing the old rules with new (hopefully "old") rules.

YOUR turn. Don't just think and talk; DO! I'll follow and support YOU this time. YOU break the wind and get the bugs on your windshield, this time. I'll draft in your wake, but still add to the progress. Together, with YOU leading the way, we can do it. We must go back to the future. We need a "guiding light." Are you "The Man?" Or are we just mentally masturbating because it feels so good that we can convince ourselves that we're actually accomplishing something real?

When the sports commentator asked Arnold Palmer how big a role "luck" played in his success, Arnold Palmer replied that luck had a huge role in it. He also said, "However, the more I practice, the luckier I become."

So, some opportunities are seized, while others are made. According to Thomas Edison, genius is "10% inspiration and 90% perspiration." Ask Joe Olson for his opinion on that. He's "the man." He gave at the office. He perspired; he lay awake nights, worried about whether he was going to let those who believed in him down. I'd get calls at 5 AM, because he was letting ME sleep while he worked on the many "issues." He let me draft in his genius and hard work and contribute the skills that I have under his direction and mostly gentle guidance. I was truly lucky to be in the right place, at the right time, with the right group of people, with the right, real leader to follow. Joe recognized the leadership and fortitude of many people at the Capitol, most of whom mostly fly under the radar and whom you do not recognize or know. But you DO recognize the names of Lynda Boudreau, Pat Pariseau, and Steve Sviggum, as well as Tim Pawlenty. He helped get many of them elected, or, retained in office. He and the team organized, for them, the support that THEY needed to get the job done for us. It's all symbiotic and, without telling you, it reaches a critical mass, finally, at 50% + 1, and a willing governor. Until then, it's seems Sisyphean.


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And people wonder why I love history! What a great bunch of posts! Keep "arguing" gentlemen...the more you do, the more we learn! I think "we" have learned more about the process in the past few posts than we might ever learn otherwise.

To Joe, David et al. I bow before you in thanks! Isn't it great that in addition to "talkers" we have been incredibly fortunate to live with "doers" !

PLease continue the debate....the more that is said...the brighter bulb I become....

pdh

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This is interesting stuff. Someone should write a book about the history of the MCPPA. Are there any authors on this forum? :wink:


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I am glad Phorvick is saying it eloquetly/ simply . . . I'd put my foot in my mouth one way or another, asking David Gross to keep talking and 1911fan to keep giving him talking points. Eeek, hope I didn't just put a foot in mouth.

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Nah. I think this is a good discussion.

I'll probably have a lot more to say at another time-- I'm like that -- but when it comes to the work that needs to be done: there's a lot of it. Pick up a shovel and/or a pickaxe, and get to it. (For those of you who already do, I'll add, "again.") You'll both get some stuff done (often frustratingly little), and develop the cred when you say, later on, "this is what I'm going to do, and I hope some of you are going to help do it."

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It looks like we've got two separate discussions here: how to do a good, cheap carry class, and how to change the laws to be better than they are. If some other mod would like to split things out, I'd appreciate it.

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To, this goes back to the question "so why are minnesotans different from people in Vt,Pa,and In?" they have no required training, they have no quals test. How much higher is their rate of ef up's? How many or their permit holders get revoked?

I think that in the minimalist states, you have what we have, responsible Citizens who realize the risks and costs and burdens of carrying and do it with remarkable discretion. I think that responsible people are responsible people no matter where they live. Somehow attaching the idea that we need a University level course structure because we are Minnesotans is erroneous.

I am not saying training is a waste, nor is practice, but I think the idea of forced training adds an unnecessary hinderance to ones Constitutional rights. I also fail to see the real life benefits when I look at States which have a true shall issue or free carry system.

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1911fan wrote:
To, this goes back to the question "so why are minnesotans different from people in Vt,Pa,and In?" they have no required training, they have no quals test. How much higher is their rate of ef up's? How many or their permit holders get revoked?

I think that in the minimalist states, you have what we have, responsible Citizens who realize the risks and costs and burdens of carrying and do it with remarkable discretion. I think that responsible people are responsible people no matter where they live. Somehow attaching the idea that we need a University level course structure because we are Minnesotans is erroneous.

I am not saying training is a waste, nor is practice, but I think the idea of forced training adds an unnecessary hinderance to ones Constitutional rights. I also fail to see the real life benefits when I look at States which have a true shall issue or free carry system.

Yes, and that is the true Bottom Line. So now we are back full circle. Training may be a desired concept, but no objective data can demonstrate it is effective in making any difference in the attitude and responbsibility of a permit holder. Thus, what can a State enact given political realities. There we are.

Ergo...if it is required, why not do it well...have fun doing it...and make it a good bang for the bucks involved. Seemslogical. Seems reasonable.

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Last edited by phorvick on Mon May 04, 2009 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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1911fan wrote:
To, this goes back to the question "so why are minnesotans different from people in Vt,Pa,and In?" they have no required training, they have no quals test. How much higher is their rate of ef up's? How many or their permit holders get revoked?

I think that in the minimalist states, you have what we have, responsible Citizens who realize the risks and costs and burdens of carrying and do it with remarkable discretion. I think that responsible people are responsible people no matter where they live. Somehow attaching the idea that we need a University level course structure because we are Minnesotans is erroneous.

I am not saying training is a waste, nor is practice, but I think the idea of forced training adds an unnecessary hinderance to ones Constitutional rights. I also fail to see the real life benefits when I look at States which have a true shall issue or free carry system.
I agree with you, honest, and I've made that point repeatedly: I think Minnesota should go Alaska-style, and issue but not require permits. And when you're working to make that happen, I promise to help, some. (Not a lot, as I think it's a quixotic campaign, mind you.)

Go to it.

That said, I think that as long as the law requires training (or even if it didn't, for that matter) it's a good thing to do it well, and a bad thing to go all Coconut Charlie. If -- and I do mean if -- you disagree, that's okay; I've been disagreed with before, and I've survived.

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Last edited by joelr on Mon May 04, 2009 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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phorvick wrote:

It is also clear that I have been pilloried by a few folks on this board for my range requirement.
That's not clear to me. Could you possibly quote some of that pillorying? I think there's folks -- like me, who has also said, repeatedly, that you're one of the instructors who I think do a good job, and who has been willing to teach a CLE class with you in the past and made it clear I would be happy to do that, again, in the future -- who have expressed some concerns about a ten-round qual with a borrowed, preloaded .22. Not an issue of it not being a "actual shooting qualification exercise" -- we're not talking pellet gun, NERF gun or Beamhit simulator here -- but about it being less than it ought to be.

That's a different thing than pillorying. I think you know, Paul, that I'm willing to pillory folks who I think deserve it. But either I'm misreading you or you're implying that I've been doing that to you, and I'd really hate if that were the case, as I pride myself on expressing myself clearly -- albeit perhaps sometimes a bit forcefully -- and I don't think I've done that.

Orthogonally: I'm not going to find myself, in this discussion or another, defending the wisdom of the, err, deceptive edge practices of skimping on practical matters just to get in more "trigger time," as I'm not in favor of the deceptive edge practices of skimping on practical matters just to get in more "trigger time."

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joelr wrote:
phorvick wrote:

It is also clear that I have been pilloried by a few folks on this board for my range requirement.
That's not clear to me. Could you possibly quote some of that pillorying? I think there's folks -- like me, who has also said, repeatedly, that you're one of the instructors who I think do a good job, and who has been willing to teach a CLE class with you in the past and made it clear I would be happy to do that, again, in the future -- who have expressed some concerns about a ten-round qual with a borrowed, preloaded .22. Not an issue of it not being a "actual shooting qualification exercise" -- we're not talking pellet gun, NERF gun or Beamhit simulator here -- but about it being less than it ought to be.

That's a different thing than pillorying. I think you know, Paul, that I'm willing to pillory folks who I think deserve it. But either I'm misreading you or you're implying that I've been doing that to you, and I'd really hate if that were the case, as I pride myself on expressing myself clearly -- albeit perhaps sometimes a bit forcefully -- and I don't think I've done that.

Orthogonally: I'm not going to find myself, in this discussion or another, defending the wisdom of the, err, deceptive edge practices of skimping on practical matters just to get in more "trigger time," as I'm not in favor of the deceptive edge practices of skimping on practical matters just to get in more "trigger time."


No, no...not you, Joel. And, in fairness, not from anyone currently a member of TCC. I have had many profanity laden e-mails and a few messages from this person when he was a member here. He also posted similar garbage on other forums..publicly... And you know who this is...the shill for DE that has been banned.

Of course it must be a real gun, real ammunition, real observation of loading/unloading/firing/safely/reasonably accurate. Where people can resonably disagree is "how many" shots we are talking about; I tend to be on the lower side (uhh...not one in a pre-loaded .22!)

I get defensive when there is generic comment of the nature that "low cost = low quality". You have NEVER said that about me and my classes...and, any even hint of any suggestion to the contrary reflects upon my inability to realize that any such general observation is not personally reflected upon me!

And, let's do some CLE again!

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