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Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - Selection of a Lawyer - DTI Quip
 
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 Selection of a Lawyer - DTI Quip 
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 Post subject: Selection of a Lawyer - DTI Quip
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:55 pm 
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John Farnam wrote:
From: dtiquips-admin@clouds.com [mailto:dtiquips-admin@clouds.com] On Behalf Of JSFarnam@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 1:46 PM
To: dtiquips@clouds.com
Subject: [Dtiquips] Lawyers!

5 May 09

Selection of a Lawyer:

My friend and colleague Mas Ayoob had sage advice for us at his lecture
during the Polite Society Event in Tulsa, OK last week. The following is a
phenomenon that I have noticed too, but Mas, who does of lot more expert
legal consulting than I do, masterfully focused in on the issue.

Representing criminal defendants is a narrow law speciality. Most lawyers
don't know much about it. Of course, all criminal defendants are entitled
to competent representation, so our System is not tempted to railroad
defendants, for the sake of expediency, politics, nor a host of other
illegitimate reasons. Sometimes it happens anyway!

The problem is that the vast majority of criminal defendants are, in fact,
guilty as charged! Most are also indigent, sleazy, unstable, and have a
criminal record already. In fact, the only classes of criminal defendants
who have money and who are willing to spend it defending themselves and their
reputations are those accused of (1) drunk driving, (2) molesting
children, and (3) dealing in illegal drugs. The vast majority of other criminal
defendants don't have two nickels to rub together!

In every town, out of hundreds of practicing lawyers, there is only a
handful whose practice includes representing criminal defendants. They spend a
lot of time with defendants accused of the foregoing crimes. They know,
and their clients concede, that their clients are almost always guilty. As
such, they are accustomed, often far too accustomed, to "making deals" in
order to get their guilty client the best outcome they think they can.
That, of course, is their job!

However, when you, a good and decent person, are compelled by circumstance
to righteously and lawfully defend yourself with gunfire, you are not
guilty of any crime! And, a real problem may develop when you hire a lawyer to
represent you who is habituated to representing guilty clients! Many have
never represented a client who is not guilty, and who is, in addition, a
decent and upright person, wrongly accused by a mendacious prosecutor
pursuing a personal, anti-gun agenda.

Lawyers like this may arbitrarily lump you in with the rest of their
clients and thus jump at the first "deal" offered by the prosecutor, rather than
carry your case forward.

Juries rock! And, it may be necessary, at trial, to get your side of the
story before a bunch of ordinary people who can imagine what they would have
done under the same circumstances in which you found yourself.

Only the USA still has juries, and you are entitled to demand one! They
have been eliminated in most other parts of the world, owing to power-hungry
despots who want complete personal control of the "justice" system. Our
still far-from-perfect System is a lumbering bureaucracy which, like all
bureaucracies, exists mostly to serve itself. And, you won't have to look
very hard to find examples of injustice. In fact, one can persuasively argue
that our System is terrible, except for all the other systems!

Mas' point is that, in gun-cases, well-know and flamboyant defense
attorneys may not be your best choice, simply because they may not want to believe
you are not a criminal, like the rest of their clients. You need to find
a lawyer who, at least occasionally, represents guiltless people, wrongly
accused, who knows something about guns and people who own them, and who
knows credible experts who can assist him.

Your best source is the ACLDN (Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network).
You need to be a member! Call them at 360 978 5200

/John
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Dtiquips@clouds.com
Copyright 2009 by DTI, Inc. All rights reserved.

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Of the people, By the People, For the People. The government exists to serve us, not the reverse.

--------------------
Next MN carry permit class: TBD.

Permit to Carry MN
--------------------

jason <at> metrodefense <dot> com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:53 pm 
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Oy.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:25 pm 
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Joel, please clarify, elaborate, expound.


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:44 pm 
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gman1868 wrote:
Joel, please clarify, elaborate, expound.

Im not Joel, but I think I can help...

Quote:
OY - From Wikipedia

Oy or OY may refer to:

Oy vey (or just Oy), a Yiddish exclamation of chagrin, dismay, exasperation or pain (also used in colloquial American English, due to influence from Yiddish)

A village in the Oy-Mittelberg municipality, Bavaria, Germany

oy (digraph), a digraph found in many languages

Osakeyhtiö (abbr. Oy), prefix/postfix indicating a Finnish Limited company

Oy (Dark Tower), an animal character in Stephen King's Dark Tower series

Opportunity Youth, a Youth organization in Northern Ireland

Omni Air International (IATA airline designator)

"OY" (Oscar, Yankee) is the aircraft registration code prefix for airplanes from Denmark

Oiy is also accepted.


:lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 9:29 pm 
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Okay, since you asked. . .

From my point of view, these guys are selling you tickets to the bus station. Not to the bus; to the station.

IANAL, as we all know, but I hang with some, both in person and virtually. Reading this is like hearing somebody play a good song on the piano, but getting a lot of the notes wrong -- and those count more than the ones that they get right.

There's so much wrong that it's hard to know where to start, so I'll pick some place at rand --

Bang. Bangbangbangbang. Snubby's empty; the guy's dead. You've just been involved in a defensive shooting. Forgetting all the stuff we all go over in class, and focus on what you need to do about the lawyer.

Shut up, and have a number in advance, now. Don't go to a website -- I don't think you'll get browser access in jail -- and try to get a referral. Any lawyer who knows how to say, "shut up and stay shut up" now is better than nothing, but you don't have time to get in front of some committee, tell them everything, and have them decide if you're worthy of financial and other support -- which, by the way (read the fine print) you lose the moment the sheriff lifts your carry permit.

Quote:
What happens to my Network membership if I lose my license to carry a concealed handgun?
If a member should be adjudged guilty of a crime or mental disorder that results in loss of his or her right to own firearms, or has their concealed carry license revoked, the Network will cancel their membership and refund a pro-rated portion of their membership dues.


Let's come back to that some other time, and switch to something else.

This stuff about how most people criminal lawyers defend against serious crimes have done them is true. So it's got to be very different when they run across a real, factually innocent guy, right? I mean, they approach it all differently, because, well, none of their bag of skills applies?

And maybe you get an innocence discount from them? After all, it's so much simpler when the guy, well, shot somebody but he really didn't do anything wrong, right?

Hell, no. It's worse. For one thing, you're not factually innocent -- you shot the guy. The only question is why, and the folks deciding whether or not you had a good enough reason, if it gets that far, are going to be twelve people who couldn't get out of jury duty who are going to see you sitting next to the defense counsel, with all sorts of nice-looking, professional folks in badges saying all sorts of stuff.

And a guy who can't get somebody off who really did it is going to be able to get you out just because you're so nice and virtuous? Aieee!

Next subject.

And your best source for the right referral, where you live, is a website in Washington with this stable of lawyers who bought a listing that they only give out if you give these folks money?

Hell, I'll tell you -- for free -- that if I'm in trouble in Minnesota I'd call (right about ten minutes ago) any of the usual names bandied about here; in NYC, Greenfield; in Houston, Bennett; Norm Pattis in CT. Not saying that they'd take my case, mind you. But it'd be a start. If I didn't have a clue, I'd call Professor Olson or David Gross and say, "I'm in trouble, I'm shutting up, but I need a good criminal defense lawyer in South Succotash," and I wouldn't be talking about how we're going to be picking out a jury.

There's one thing that they're right on: the high-profile lawyer who you've seen on TV may or may not be the right one. I've seen Brian Toder, say, make very public statements -- rarely -- and while I've never asked him about it (a: we're not particularly close, although we are friendly, and b: he'd slap me down, appropriately, if I tried to pry into his clients' affairs through him), I know he wasn't doing that because he likes to see his face on TV, but because in his professional opinion, this time talking to the cameras was in his clients' interest.

When was the last time you saw Marc or David or Jeff in front of a camera? Not never, sure, but . . . okay, yeah, these guys are right about that.

I think these are all nice people, sure, but this is, it seems to me, "my buddy's got a gun range; let's put on a show."

If you want to buy a ticket, hell, it's only $85 / year, and you'll get all of those services . . .

. . . until the moment your permit gets pulled.

Hence: oy.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 9:48 pm 
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Thank you for your insightful and thoughtful response. I have to agree 100% with your assessment. It seems obvious to me that you paid better attention to what you were reading than I did. I think I paid attention only to the stuff I wanted to :oops: ;)


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:12 am 
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Don't feel bad gman I was sort of suckered in on the first reading myself. I got a little sideways when they started asking for money.

I think part of it is they give you sort of a half-truth that sounds rational and good and it's in a technical area where we have no experience, thankfully: that of a criminal defense lawyer in the courtroom defending a "good shoot".

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 Post subject: Thought experiment -- and a free directions to the bus stati
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:46 am 
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Let me try a thought experiment. I'm not sure if it's legal, so let's just assume it is, for the sake of argument.

Let's say I promise to, for anybody who has sent me a check for $50 in the past year with the words "Promise to Look for a Lawyer" on the Memo line, to do just that, once, if they call me, from jail (or, if in their opinion they're on their way to it). I don't promise to find them the right lawyer, or even somebody who will take their case at a price that they can afford, but I do promise to make a few phone calls and at least get them a couple of numbers of real CDLs in their area.

I'm a pretty decent researcher, and I know a few folks. No guarantees, but I might be able to do a decent job of that. And since we're assuming, for the sake of argument, that this is all lawful, how isn't this a better deal than this $85 / year to these other folks?

I'm not going to fund their defense, but, then again, I'm not hinting that I'm going to. And I'm not going to throw them to the wolves, metaphorically, if the sheriff yanks their permits, or even if I think they've murdered somebody. I'm not, in this hypothetical, passing judgment (or selling my imprimateur) -- I'm just offering a service.

Hell, and it's an honorable service, sort of, because everybody -- no matter who they are or what they have or haven't done -- is entitled to a defense. Eichmann got one, after all.

Okay, so why would it be wrong for me to set up that business? (Again, we're forgetting the legal issues.)

It's because I'm selling you a ticket to the bus station. And that's pretty bad.

Instead, for free, I'll point you to Tannebaum's ebook at http://www.scribd.com/doc/6123526/The-T ... nse-Lawyer . IANAL, and all, but some folks who are think it's pretty good.

And you don't have to pay me no $85 year.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 8:21 am 
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I looked into one of those pre-paid legal services years ago. I asked a lawyer friend about it. He said: "Why do you need that? You have me. And if you don't like me, you can get free referrals from many places."

I countered with: "Well, but look here, it's like legal fee insurance. They will pay for the lawyer."

He invited me to dig a little deeper and I found that basically they didn't cover anything that cost real money.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:06 am 
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I might be mistaken, but if I happen to be involved in a (God forbid) shooting, then I would be much better off doing it from my automobile. That way my AAA card will get me bail.

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:10 am 
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Traveler wrote:
I might be mistaken, but if I happen to be involved in a (God forbid) shooting, then I would be much better off doing it from my automobile. That way my AAA card will get me bail.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
:) Tell it to Treptow. :(

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:16 am 
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joelr wrote:
Traveler wrote:
I might be mistaken, but if I happen to be involved in a (God forbid) shooting, then I would be much better off doing it from my automobile. That way my AAA card will get me bail.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
:) Tell it to Treptow. :(


Just make sure you ask, "Are you a <strike>rage-ridden asshole with a badge</strike> special person?" before defending yourself, you'll be fine.

-Mark


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