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Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - Inexpensive, minimalist class?
 
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 Inexpensive, minimalist class? 
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:48 pm 
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joelr wrote:
I think there's a belief here that the real barrier to folks getting a carry permit is the difference between, say, a $50 class and, say, a $185 TCCarry class.

I don't think that's the case, alas.

Really, the marginal difference in the cost of one class over another is a small part of the story. There's the permit, the gun (if you don't already have one), holsters, ammo for practice, range time, etc. etc.

<a href=http://ellegon.com/features/data/trainingcosts/>This</a> is a little dated, but play around with it. The marginal cost of a more expensive carry class really is a very small part of it, although it's something that, I think, a fair number of folks do use to talk themselves out of getting their permits.


Well, someone who takes the TCCarry class, as I recall, ends up paying $185 to you, $17 to the range, $20 for ammunition for the 40 round course of fire, and $100 to the Sheriff. So they're out $322 for a permit, and have set aside most of their Saturday for a class that starts at 9:00 a.m. and doesn't finish until mid-afternoon. Out of state permits add a trip to the notary, a trip to the passport photo place, an appointment for fingerprints, and so on.

It's all in good fun if you're a gunnie and this sort of stuff makes your propeller go around. Which is probably true of most if not all the people who post here.

For the casual shooter, though, it's too much time and hassle. Can instructors fix that, entirely, themselves? Well, no, but the difference in time and money between a six-hour course of instruction with Joel for $222 and a three-hour course of instruction with some hypothetical instructor who takes a simpler approach for, say, half that, may be enough to make the difference between getting the permit or not for people who don't plan to carry but want the permit as a precaution.

The original discussion was about why a smaller fraction of the Minnesota population has permits than some other states. I think that's why. For the wealthy dentists among us, it's too much time. For the unemployed, it's too much money.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 5:18 am 
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MostlyHarmless wrote:
joelr wrote:
I think there's a belief here that the real barrier to folks getting a carry permit is the difference between, say, a $50 class and, say, a $185 TCCarry class.

I don't think that's the case, alas.

Really, the marginal difference in the cost of one class over another is a small part of the story. There's the permit, the gun (if you don't already have one), holsters, ammo for practice, range time, etc. etc.

<a href=http://ellegon.com/features/data/trainingcosts/>This</a> is a little dated, but play around with it. The marginal cost of a more expensive carry class really is a very small part of it, although it's something that, I think, a fair number of folks do use to talk themselves out of getting their permits.


Well, someone who takes the TCCarry class, as I recall, ends up paying $185 to you, $17 to the range, $20 for ammunition for the 40 round course of fire, and $100 to the Sheriff. So they're out $322 for a permit, and have set aside most of their Saturday for a class that starts at 9:00 a.m. and doesn't finish until mid-afternoon. Out of state permits add a trip to the notary, a trip to the passport photo place, an appointment for fingerprints, and so on.
Sure. And if they don't already have a suitable gun for carry, they're out, say, $350 for a decent used snubby (and let's not talk about how hard it is to find a good used snubby at that price, these days, and the gas to go shopping; add more, if they're going to save time and add money) probably another $200 until they find a holster that works for them, and -- at least in the metro -- another $200 for range fees for the first year (figuring a minimal one trip per month to the range) and another $240 for ammo for the first year for practice (figuring a bit more than a box per trip; pretty minimal). (And let's assume that they don't go for a permit that requires fingerprinting, in addition.)

So, one year later, they've likely spent more than $1300 to get started, and, yup, they could have trimmed off $100 by going for a $85 class, and by going for this minimal class that you're advocating they could have saved a couple of hours on a Saturday or Sunday.

Or, if that's really the issue, they could just have saved that $100 up front and taken a class with Paul, when he does his classes at Bill's, locally, every now and then. Only additional expense over that minimal class you're advocating is a couple of tens of bucks and a couple of hours.

Once every five years. So your problem is close to fixed. Is there really some pressing need to cut out those couple of hours and twenty or so bucks? Is that really the barrier for <s>anybody at all</s> a lot of folks? If so, get ten such folks together, and he'll drop his class fees down to fifty bucks. Get a hundred together, and I'll drop mine down to $85. (Or, I'm guessing, Paul would still do a hundred person class at fifty bucks / person, too, although he hasn't explicitly said so.)

Now, what is that problem that the instructors can't solve themselves entirely, but are willfully helping to maintain, again? I'm missing it.

And, yup, they can cut out most of that expense if all they really want is the card, or a few hundred of it if they're going to skip the practice stuff, or if they already have a suitable (in their opinion) gun.

We can even make it cheaper, if all they really want is the card as a precaution: instead of going for a good class, they can get three other friends together, buy a "four pack" from Penaz, and drop their class fees to $55 -- he'll even throw in lunch -- and just get the Utah permit.

Problem solved.

ETA: there actually is a real problem out there. Consider the urban welfare mom who really can't get out to the range, at all -- not a lot of busses run to BPR, and she's not going to drag her kids with her to Bill's (bad vibe) and can't afford the babysitting. $100 for a permit? She can't swing that; that's food money for her family for a preposterously long time. A gun? You probably don't want to know how she's acquired a gun -- and she's done it, already, as she really doesn't want some asshole grabbing her on the stairs and shoving her into a hallway again, and then -- well, let's not get into that. And practice? Nah. Besides, she won't be eligible for her permit for a couple of years, anyway -- she's only nineteen, after all.

I don't have the slightest idea what to do about her . . . unless I end up on the jury after she's shot the guy who decided to rape her again. Then I know what my role is, and it doesn't have diddly to do with instruction, carry permit training or jury instructions.

I worry a lot more about her than I do about Sven Ingebretsen out in Palmer who sits around the bar and tells his friends that, yeah, he'd like to get himself one of those carry permits, but the damn instructors charge so damn much, and let's have another round of Grain Belt, heckuva deal, and can you believe that they charge so much, and what are they going to do to get the sheriffs to charge less, hell, that damn law oughtta be changed, it should, because carry permits are only fifteen bucks in South Dakota, and those activist guys should get right on it, you know, cause he once dropped a couple of bucks in the kitty at a GOCRA table at a gun show, at least he thinks he did, maybe it was even a five, and five bucks is pretty hard to come by -- hell, that's about the price of a pitcher, and where is that damn pitcher, anyway?

He can just get nine friends together and call Paul, if he wants to.

He won't.

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Last edited by joelr on Thu May 07, 2009 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 6:23 am 
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The cost of a course reflects more than just the instructor's time.

While many instructors choose not to acknowledge this (present company excepted) when you do permit training, you take on vicarious liability for every student you certify. If one of your students gets into a shoot, you are likely going to have to answer a subpoena at the very least, and if one of your students is sued, you could be liable as well.

I have three layers of insurance. I've got general liability, which protects me if there is an accident in class or on the range. I have professional liability, which protects me if a student is involved in a shooting, and I have a legal defense policy in case those two are not enough.

This stuff ain't free. For those that are interested, I get my insurance through the NRA and another source. Be aware that very few insurance companies will cover firearms training.

There is also the cost of instructor development. A good instructor is going to do things to stay current, such as attending training conferences, research, etc. and this is not free either. A single use-of-force training course can cost upwards of $500.

There are other costs too, marketing, office supplies (that paper the certificate is printed on costs money, and it adds up) and training equipment.

And then there is corporate taxes and other business expenses too.

I might not be the most popular or wildly successful firearms instructor in the state, but I am quite confident that I am offering a quality product in both my carry and tactical courses. Students of mine are going to get what they pay for: first rate instruction and my full support if they are involved in a legit shooting.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 6:30 am 
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joelr wrote:
ETA: there actually is a real problem out there. Consider the urban welfare mom who really can't get out to the range, at all -- not a lot of busses run to BPR, and she's not going to drag her kids with her to Bill's (bad vibe) and can't afford the babysitting. $100 for a permit? She can't swing that; that's food money for her family for a preposterously long time. A gun? You probably don't want to know how she's acquired a gun -- and she's done it, already, as she really doesn't want some asshole grabbing her on the stairs and shoving her into a hallway again, and then -- well, let's not get into that. And practice? Nah. Besides, she won't be eligible for her permit for a couple of years, anyway -- she's only nineteen, after all.

Yep. There's a real problem here.

Suppose she wants to buy a handgun. First, all of the truly inexpensive handguns are illegal in Minnesota, because of our [elided] Saturday Night Special law. And all of our gun stores are out in the suburbs because Minneapolis and St. Paul are abusing their zoning authority to keep them out of town. So buying a gun is a three-hour expedition, at a minimum, during the business day. But first, she needs to make a trip downtown to apply for a Permit to Purchase. (Any guesses how many city clerks she'll have to ask before she finds out where to get an application?) Then the trip to the gun store. And if her NICS check comes back "deferred", it's another three hour trip to the gun store.

It's a lot easier, and a lot cheaper, to just buy a gun from that friend of her boyfriend's cousin. And when it turns out that gun had been stolen, and used in a gang shooting, ...


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 7:41 am 
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I've only skimmed the topic. I don't want to get too involved in the discussion, since there are a wide range of opinions.

Just wanted to inject a different way to look at the costs; not justifying, just offering:

$100 for the permit - That's $20 a year that your permit is valid
Imagine paying yearly, I bet the cost would start at $30.

$125 for the class - $25 a year
If the training were yearly, you'd spend more than $25 a class. Plus, more people in the class and more classes the instructors would have to do would drive up the price.

A second note on training, most instructors will let you sit in on classes (if you don't require the paperwork) for free, so you could get 'refreshed' yearly.

When one does not have their permit and they are looking at this from the bottom up, it does seem like a lot of money and time to invest. It's been mentioned in this thread that the actual savings that you may get, isn't a whole lot. You could find a course that is $125 and you could do it this saturday, or you can shop around and hold off until you find the best deal. But, how many months go by before you pull the trigger? As a procrastinator, I find that doing something now at a higher price can outweigh the little savings and all the wasted time.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:31 am 
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jdege wrote:
joelr wrote:
ETA: there actually is a real problem out there. Consider the urban welfare mom who really can't get out to the range, at all -- not a lot of busses run to BPR, and she's not going to drag her kids with her to Bill's (bad vibe) and can't afford the babysitting. $100 for a permit? She can't swing that; that's food money for her family for a preposterously long time. A gun? You probably don't want to know how she's acquired a gun -- and she's done it, already, as she really doesn't want some asshole grabbing her on the stairs and shoving her into a hallway again, and then -- well, let's not get into that. And practice? Nah. Besides, she won't be eligible for her permit for a couple of years, anyway -- she's only nineteen, after all.

Yep. There's a real problem here.

Suppose she wants to buy a handgun. First, all of the truly inexpensive handguns are illegal in Minnesota, because of our [elided] Saturday Night Special law. And all of our gun stores are out in the suburbs because Minneapolis and St. Paul are abusing their zoning authority to keep them out of town. So buying a gun is a three-hour expedition, at a minimum, during the business day. But first, she needs to make a trip downtown to apply for a Permit to Purchase. (Any guesses how many city clerks she'll have to ask before she finds out where to get an application?) Then the trip to the gun store. And if her NICS check comes back "deferred", it's another three hour trip to the gun store.

It's a lot easier, and a lot cheaper, to just buy a gun from that friend of her boyfriend's cousin. And when it turns out that gun had been stolen, and used in a gang shooting, ...
Yup.

I worry about that, a fair amount. Wish I knew a solution that could be implemented.

That said, if the folks who would like us to move to a SD-style permit system (I'm one of them) and who think it's doable (I'm not), and who are willing to put in the years and years of work that would make that happen (I'm willing to help a little, but I've got other windmills to tilt at) could also manage to throw getting rid of those stupid bans on "Saturday Night Specials" onto their to-do list, I think that'd be great.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 9:31 am 
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joelr wrote:
jdege wrote:
joelr wrote:
ETA: there actually is a real problem out there. Consider the urban welfare mom who really can't get out to the range, at all -- not a lot of busses run to BPR, and she's not going to drag her kids with her to Bill's (bad vibe) and can't afford the babysitting. $100 for a permit? She can't swing that; that's food money for her family for a preposterously long time. A gun? You probably don't want to know how she's acquired a gun -- and she's done it, already, as she really doesn't want some asshole grabbing her on the stairs and shoving her into a hallway again, and then -- well, let's not get into that. And practice? Nah. Besides, she won't be eligible for her permit for a couple of years, anyway -- she's only nineteen, after all.

Yep. There's a real problem here.

Suppose she wants to buy a handgun. First, all of the truly inexpensive handguns are illegal in Minnesota, because of our [elided] Saturday Night Special law. And all of our gun stores are out in the suburbs because Minneapolis and St. Paul are abusing their zoning authority to keep them out of town. So buying a gun is a three-hour expedition, at a minimum, during the business day. But first, she needs to make a trip downtown to apply for a Permit to Purchase. (Any guesses how many city clerks she'll have to ask before she finds out where to get an application?) Then the trip to the gun store. And if her NICS check comes back "deferred", it's another three hour trip to the gun store.

It's a lot easier, and a lot cheaper, to just buy a gun from that friend of her boyfriend's cousin. And when it turns out that gun had been stolen, and used in a gang shooting, ...
Yup.

I worry about that, a fair amount. Wish I knew a solution that could be implemented.

That said, if the folks who would like us to move to a SD-style permit system (I'm one of them) and who think it's doable (I'm not), and who are willing to put in the years and years of work that would make that happen (I'm willing to help a little, but I've got other windmills to tilt at) could also manage to throw getting rid of those stupid bans on "Saturday Night Specials" onto their to-do list, I think that'd be great.


The solution is simple, and you said it before: people have to not be afraid to get on a jury and do the right thing. Jury nullification is the single most effective way to get around a bad law. No, it isn't equally applied, but all of the intelligent, hard working people who find excuses to get out of jury duty do a disservice to all of us when they do so.

It only takes one to get a hung jury.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 10:10 am 
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tommygun wrote:
On a visit to Minnesota last weekend I realized my permits were in my other wallet. Does the fact that I have the Utah permit and will be able to present it - eventually - get me off the hook for not having it in my immediate possession, and will I likely lose my gun if checked?


Since UT is honored here, the laws work the same. Your primary issue is going to be the officer interaction. The finer points of Carry law are not always understood by every officer in every situation. Add in reciprocity and an out of state permit the officer has no way to validate on the spot? Then add in the "Left it in my shorts at home" ... Not a good scenario.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 11:09 pm 
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joelr wrote:
MostlyHarmless wrote:
joelr wrote:
I think there's a belief here that the real barrier to folks getting a carry permit is the difference between, say, a $50 class and, say, a $185 TCCarry class.

I don't think that's the case, alas.

Really, the marginal difference in the cost of one class over another is a small part of the story. There's the permit, the gun (if you don't already have one), holsters, ammo for practice, range time, etc. etc.

<a href=http://ellegon.com/features/data/trainingcosts/>This</a> is a little dated, but play around with it. The marginal cost of a more expensive carry class really is a very small part of it, although it's something that, I think, a fair number of folks do use to talk themselves out of getting their permits.


Well, someone who takes the TCCarry class, as I recall, ends up paying $185 to you, $17 to the range, $20 for ammunition for the 40 round course of fire, and $100 to the Sheriff. So they're out $322 for a permit, and have set aside most of their Saturday for a class that starts at 9:00 a.m. and doesn't finish until mid-afternoon. Out of state permits add a trip to the notary, a trip to the passport photo place, an appointment for fingerprints, and so on.
Sure. And if they don't already have a suitable gun for carry, they're out, say, $350 for a decent used snubby (and let's not talk about how hard it is to find a good used snubby at that price, these days, and the gas to go shopping; add more, if they're going to save time and add money) probably another $200 until they find a holster that works for them, and -- at least in the metro -- another $200 for range fees for the first year (figuring a minimal one trip per month to the range) and another $240 for ammo for the first year for practice (figuring a bit more than a box per trip; pretty minimal). (And let's assume that they don't go for a permit that requires fingerprinting, in addition.)

So, one year later, they've likely spent more than $1300 to get started, and, yup, they could have trimmed off $100 by going for a $85 class, and by going for this minimal class that you're advocating they could have saved a couple of hours on a Saturday or Sunday.

Or, if that's really the issue, they could just have saved that $100 up front and taken a class with Paul, when he does his classes at Bill's, locally, every now and then. Only additional expense over that minimal class you're advocating is a couple of tens of bucks and a couple of hours.

Once every five years. So your problem is close to fixed. Is there really some pressing need to cut out those couple of hours and twenty or so bucks? Is that really the barrier for <s>anybody at all</s> a lot of folks? If so, get ten such folks together, and he'll drop his class fees down to fifty bucks. Get a hundred together, and I'll drop mine down to $85. (Or, I'm guessing, Paul would still do a hundred person class at fifty bucks / person, too, although he hasn't explicitly said so.)

Now, what is that problem that the instructors can't solve themselves entirely, but are willfully helping to maintain, again? I'm missing it.

And, yup, they can cut out most of that expense if all they really want is the card, or a few hundred of it if they're going to skip the practice stuff, or if they already have a suitable (in their opinion) gun.

We can even make it cheaper, if all they really want is the card as a precaution: instead of going for a good class, they can get three other friends together, buy a "four pack" from Penaz, and drop their class fees to $55 -- he'll even throw in lunch -- and just get the Utah permit.

Problem solved.

ETA: there actually is a real problem out there. Consider the urban welfare mom who really can't get out to the range, at all -- not a lot of busses run to BPR, and she's not going to drag her kids with her to Bill's (bad vibe) and can't afford the babysitting. $100 for a permit? She can't swing that; that's food money for her family for a preposterously long time. A gun? You probably don't want to know how she's acquired a gun -- and she's done it, already, as she really doesn't want some asshole grabbing her on the stairs and shoving her into a hallway again, and then -- well, let's not get into that. And practice? Nah. Besides, she won't be eligible for her permit for a couple of years, anyway -- she's only nineteen, after all.

I don't have the slightest idea what to do about her . . . unless I end up on the jury after she's shot the guy who decided to rape her again. Then I know what my role is, and it doesn't have diddly to do with instruction, carry permit training or jury instructions.

I worry a lot more about her than I do about Sven Ingebretsen out in Palmer who sits around the bar and tells his friends that, yeah, he'd like to get himself one of those carry permits, but the damn instructors charge so damn much, and let's have another round of Grain Belt, heckuva deal, and can you believe that they charge so much, and what are they going to do to get the sheriffs to charge less, hell, that damn law oughtta be changed, it should, because carry permits are only fifteen bucks in South Dakota, and those activist guys should get right on it, you know, cause he once dropped a couple of bucks in the kitty at a GOCRA table at a gun show, at least he thinks he did, maybe it was even a five, and five bucks is pretty hard to come by -- hell, that's about the price of a pitcher, and where is that damn pitcher, anyway?

He can just get nine friends together and call Paul, if he wants to.

He won't.


The hypothetical(?) example of the 19 year old single mother wanting to protect herself from being attacked is, unfortunately, something that would require at least a few new laws, or at least repealing some current laws.

What I was talking about is the very real life situation of a person who lives in a crime ridden neighborhood in our state's second largest city, who already has a pistol that he's owned for some time, has a place that he can do any practice shooting free of charge and has ammo on hand as well as an ample supply of components to reload ammo. So those costs are negated. The thing standing in the way of this person getting a permit is the cost of obtaining the required training certificate and the cost of the application fee. Yes, when you break it down over the 5 years that the permit is valid for it is a pretty reasonable cost. The problem with that analysis is that all of the instructors I know of want the money for the whole 5 years up front, and I'm not aware of any Sheriff who offers a yearly installment plan for the application fee. So in the real world a person has to reach into their pocket and pull out $125 (or more) for the class and then reach back in that pocket and pull out another $100 when he hands his application to the Sheriff. Some people just don't have that kind of extra cash after they pay the mortgage and buy some food for the family. I'm talking about a hard working guy who gave 4 years of his life to serve his country, and now finds himself on reduced hours at work and struggling to keep on top of the bills and isn't sitting in a bar downing Grain Belts and bitching because he's too busy working odd jobs on the side to try to make a better life for his family.

I could be wrong, but I don't think he's the only one. But he doesn't know and have the contact info for another 9 or 99 people in his situation so that he can coordinate and schedule a class to get a reduced rate.

I've said it before in previous posts, but I want to re-iterate, that this is in no way meant as a slam on any of the instructors on this board or anywhere else. I feel that instructors like Joel, Andrew and many others provide top notch training that would be valuable to anyone - from novice to experienced.
I only sought to discuss what (if any) option existed (or maybe should exist) for people who just plain can't afford that level of training yet would like to get a P2C. The instructors who have posted have made good points about the costs they incur in putting on the classes and the need to recoup them and I have come to the conclusion that while I think the MN carry law is in many ways better than other states, it will not be affordable to every person who wants or needs a permit. Market economics are what they are.

ETA: I have received PMs from a couple of instructors offering a free class for my example person (who is in fact a real person, none of what I written in my "example" was made up) And I am passing those offers on to the person and also offering to pay any additional range fees myself.
So this person will hopefully soon be able to obtain a permit.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 5:38 am 
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parap1445 wrote:
The hypothetical(?) example of the 19 year old single mother wanting to protect herself from being attacked is, unfortunately, something that would require at least a few new laws, or at least repealing some current laws.

I have assumed I'm in the minority with this opinion, since no one else has said anything when I have voiced it:

I maintain that the MCPPA does not exclude 18+ from obtaining permits, it just guarantees issuance to 21+. Nowhere does it say that you must be 21(+). The sheriffs won't see it this way though, without an opinion from the AG or something.


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parap1445 wrote:
I'm talking about a hard working guy who gave 4 years of his life to serve his country, and now finds himself on reduced hours at work and struggling to keep on top of the bills and isn't sitting in a bar downing Grain Belts and bitching because he's too busy working odd jobs on the side to try to make a better life for his family.

I could be wrong, but I don't think he's the only one. But he doesn't know and have the contact info for another 9 or 99 people in his situation so that he can coordinate and schedule a class to get a reduced rate.
Sheesh. Since that's what this is all about, I wish you'd said so a week ago. Privately would have been fine.

Charity isn't a dirty word. And one of the nice things about doing things the way I do is that it makes it real easy for me to do a little free training and not feel like I'm shorting anybody at all. You've all heard me bitch about how much I resent doing the free training for folks who get emergency permits -- which is: no complaining at all; happy to help -- and this is close enough. If others haven't already handled this situation, just send him to me; class, book, handouts, and range qual are on me. I can't solve the $100 for the permit, but if he comes and enough people hit the tip jar with a notation "for the guy who needs the permit but can't afford it", I'll pass the the money along to him, and hang on to any surplus for future such things. (That sort of thing has happened; one of the emergency permit folks, quite a while back, insisted on giving me a check, and I accepted it with the understanding that it was for stuff like this -- I won't take money for emergency permit training, because I said I won't, dammit, but that's different. Sure, that money and more has long since been spent on stuff like this, but, sheesh, that's easy to do again.)

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 7:51 am 
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As far as I'm concerned, no vet has to worry about class cost.

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Any Vet or serving serviceman can take the class at no cost from many instructors here, including me.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Selurcspi wrote:
Any Vet or serving serviceman can take the class at no cost from many instructors here, including me.


This has been and will continue to be my policy. Same goes for the young lady described above.

Being retired and on a fixed income I can appreciate how the cost of anything can be a potential deal killer.

But when I get someone who's opening line is "how much do you charge?" I invariably respond with "have you priced funerals lately? I'm a wee bit less."

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ecrist wrote:
Just an observation, but I'm curious as to why instructors are *so* defensive about their pricing. I notice that certain folks really look down upon most instructors, and feel they are the #1, best thing since sliced-bread, instructor. A little pompous, IMHO, but who am I?

I think the 'I do X preparation before every class' argument is bullsh!t, as every class is the same. You've got a venue for the course, and your range is all worked out. I help with some DNR firearms classes and some other things, and we don't have that much invested in the setup, time-wise.

I have this argument with many service companies. I run a security firm, and I feel my prices are reasonable. I make a great income, even though I don't have the highest hourly rate, and I don't have to nickel-and-dime my customers. Some of my competitors have shop-fees, and trip-charges they tack on, claiming they need to recover the cost of drive time, vehicle expenses, etc. I call that a cost of doing business. Instructors, I would point out that this can, in a way, be what you're doing, according to your posted 'justifications.' Your laptop, projector, venue rental, etc. It's a one time expense, in some cases, so why must your charge for it for all your classes, forever? Also, most business venues have projectors and even laptops or computers to use, if you're renting their facility.

In my uneducated opinion, the consistent crap you dish out on 'Coconut Charlie,' et al, shows a lack of confidence in your own rates.

Now, I'm off to figure out why, after many emails, a voice mail, and my payment, the good instructor I'm registered with for a class this Saturday can't be bothered to respond to me. I mean, he's spending so much time preparing, to justify the fee, I figured he'd have a minute for a call or email.


:roll:


What I will say, without digging into any of the sniping, is that most people have no idea how much it costs to be a decent instructor, so I have to call BS on your BS.

I was in the same boat. I've been assisting a certified instructor with his classes (and learning in the process), and am going through the NRA classes in a couple of weeks, and then onto the MADFI cert. I've been helping said instructor get his LLC up and running. There are costs that you haven't considered...I certainly hadn't considered them before this.

Equipment DOES cost money. Projectors have wear and tear, as do laptops (if you don't believe me, ask your employer's accounting department about maintenance charges on technology).

Venue rental is not a one-time fee. It's an EVERY-time fee.

Certification classes are expensive. It's hundreds of dollars to get started. Add to that the cost of on-going training, and you've got significant expense. Between NRA, MADFI, and a number of other courses I'm taking this year, I'll be in the thousands, not including ammo, travel, hotels, rental cars, etc. Do I need all these just to teach permit classes? Nope, but I'm determined to be as well-educated as I can be in order to provide the best instruction that I possibly can to my students. And for the record, I'm not going to be teaching only permit classes.

Liability insurance? $$$

Accountant to handle the books? $$$

Website hosting? $$$

Credit card processing? $$$

Business cards? $$$

Marketing? $$$

Does a good instructor need all this? Not necessarily...but if you intend to make it a true business, there are costs involved. Don't be quite so quick to negate the reality of it.

-Mark


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