Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive
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Inexpensive, minimalist class?
http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12763		 Page 6 of 8
Author:  plblark [ Mon May 11, 2009 11:16 am ]
Post subject: 
mrokern wrote:
UPDATE: Ok, lots of spin-off threads sitting out there now. If any other mod sees more splits that need done, please feel free.


Thanks for taking it on.
Author:  Carbide Insert [ Mon May 11, 2009 11:33 am ]
Post subject: 
When you've gotta teach a class,
There's no telling what they'd say
If you showed up there to teach
With garlic to convey

That toothpaste don't come free, you know
That brush ain't on the house,
So someone's gotta pony up
For fresh air in this house.

I gotta get those guns to class,
(Can't send 'em through the mail)
And unless you subsidize my ride,
I'll have to take light rail.

Pants are optional at times, I know...
But carry classes ain't the venue,
So unless you want to see my magnum,
You'll drop tips in the pail.

Pens don't come free,
They walk alway
(Hey, are you any different?)
I gotta eat! You gotta pay!
What's that? You've been offended?
Just tell me where you go to work;
I'll be there with The Book
And when you tell me: "take a hike!"
I'll tell you: "Hey man, look..."

There is no telling
What it's worth
When .gov's come a knockin'
For a lad who'se got your back
And told you who to-be callin'

So what's it worth?
(That nickel and dime)
When what you're lookin for
Is less than Phorvick's carry fee
As they slam that jailhouse door?

Priceless.
Author:  princewally [ Mon May 11, 2009 11:34 am ]
Post subject: 
ecrist wrote:
Liability Insurance: ~$2000/year for General Libability with a $2,000,000 coverage
Accountant: ~FREE (Quickbooks, MYOB, etc)
Website Hosting: ~$5/month, or less.
Credit Card Processing: A static ~2-4% (depends on lots of things, generally not more than 4%, though)
Business Cards: $35/box of 250
Marketing: If you're using forums, etc, free, minus time. My guess is less than $2000/year.
Laptop: Brand-New for ~$600
Projector $300 to $1000 on BestBuy.com today or ~$400 on Craigslist
SoS business registration or filing for assumed name: $120 to $300

-so long as we're at it-
Toothpaste: $1.50
Toothbrush: $0.97
Fuel to drive to venue: ~$10
A day's worth of auto insurance, to drive to/from venue: $2.00
A day's worth of auto payment, to drive to/from venue: $10.00
Clothing on one's back: ~$50
Pens used to fill out paperwork: $2.99
Breakfast, picked up on the way to the class: $5.95
The thrill of charging for material reasonably necessary for a class: priceless ;)

To instruct for a Minnesota carry permit, you only need to be certified to instruct by Minnesota. MADFI, NRA, etc, are all extra, and your choices.



Interesting. Taking these numbers at (more-or-less) face value, I should be charging about $115 per, just to break even. That's not counting cert costs.
Author:  Carbide Insert [ Mon May 11, 2009 11:35 am ]
Post subject: 
It was kinda rough in some places, but hey, I threw it out over lunch.
Not too bad, for a "quickie". :wink:
Author:  ScottM [ Mon May 11, 2009 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Auto repair plug
Sietch wrote:
As long as you mentioned it,

joelr wrote:
TAs -- 46th and Chicago


What's it called? Since moving here the old fourwheels hasn't needed anything I can't do myself, but it undoubtedly will
and probably very soon.


It's a small two bay gas station (Texaco I think) and repair shop. I know nothing else about them, although it sounds like Joel likes them quite a bit if he's been going there for 20 years.
Another alternative is Paul Williams Tire on Harriet and Lake which is where I work. We have factory scan tools for Ford, GM, Toyota, Kia, Hyundai and Honda products plus I have a Snap On scan tool which accesses at least engine and trans computers for 90% of the other brands out there. I am the weird electrical or engine management problem guy primarily but do basic stuff too.
Author:  joelr [ Mon May 11, 2009 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto repair plug
ScottM wrote:
Sietch wrote:
As long as you mentioned it,

joelr wrote:
TAs -- 46th and Chicago


What's it called? Since moving here the old fourwheels hasn't needed anything I can't do myself, but it undoubtedly will
and probably very soon.


It's a small two bay gas station (Texaco I think) and repair shop. I know nothing else about them, although it sounds like Joel likes them quite a bit if he's been going there for 20 years.
I think they're Shell at the moment; they keep changing their brand affiliation. But they don't change Terry and Darrell, who maintain the cars that my daughters and wife ride in, and that's what matters to me.

Quote:
Another alternative is Paul Williams Tire on Harriet and Lake which is where I work. We have factory scan tools for Ford, GM, Toyota, Kia, Hyundai and Honda products plus I have a Snap On scan tool which accesses at least engine and trans computers for 90% of the other brands out there. I am the weird electrical or engine management problem guy primarily but do basic stuff too.
I've heard good things about you guys; be nice to have another good choice, if Terry and Darrell retire, or TA's gets hit by a meteor or something. Thanks.
Author:  MostlyHarmless [ Mon May 11, 2009 9:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
So, with a nod of thanks to the mods for carving away some of the side discussions, the better to serve them from a thread of their own, we now return to the regularly scheduled discussion of radically simplified training.

I would like to start with a personal note, to state that I do not at present and do not ever intend to make a profit from firearms-related activities of any kind. As such my interest in this topic is for reasons of political and social change, as a larger carry community helps to ensure the right for generations to come and makes lawful carry an unexceptional occurrence. I hope that no one here is sufficiently indentured to firearms instruction as a source of revenue to oppose this effort on personal economic grounds.

There are these areas to be addressed:

1) Objectives of the minimalist course.
2) Intended audience; prerequisites; expectations of students.
3) Learning aids and reference materials for use before and after classroom instruction.
4) Tools and strategies for effective, verifiable self-paced learning.
5) The content of the classroom portion of the instruction.
6) Range qualification
7) Handling follow-on support after the conclusion of the class.

== Objectives ==

My goal in championing a new approach to training is to make the carry permit worthwhile to a larger number of Minnesota gun owners by removing barriers to taking the class, without compromising safety, quality of instruction, or compliance. The three particular barriers I want to address are: 1) Time required and in particular the requirement to set aside most of a day for the class, 2) Total cost of achieving qualification, and 3) Distance required to travel to a class.

== Intended audience ==

It is my belief that safe and effective pistol handling cannot be truly achieved by those with no firearms experience whatsoever without one-on-one training and periodic drills conducted frequently over a period of weeks. Therefore, the intended audience for this class is limited to people who have at least a minimal degree of experience in pistol shooting.

An area for discussion is what criteria to use. Ideally such criteria would be objective and easily met by someone wishing to refresh or expand their skills prior to taking a class, perhaps by visiting the range with a friend who shoots regularly but who may not be an instructor.

== Learning aids and reference materials ==

I would like to develop materials that are:
1) Of the highest quality,
2) Free,
3) Open content,
4) Web oriented,
5) Also suitable for distribution in print form when necessary.

One idea would be to develop, on a collaborative basis, new materials at Wikibooks or another suitable site designed for textbook development.

== Self-paced learning ==

Nearly all compliance-driven and vocational curriculum being developed today utilizes web-delivered lecture. Such online class modules are, when done well, multimedia (text, voice, still artwork, animation and video), and are designed to prevent students from skipping large sections or moving through the material at such a rapid pace as to preclude understanding. Such modules also typically include quizzes and final tests both to reinforce learning and to verify that the material was actually viewed.

These materials would, ideally, also be open content. Print versions of these would not be practical.

== Classroom curriculum ==

Given a classroom full of gun owners who have completed a comprehensive web-delivered portion of the course at a time that is convenient for them, the role of the classroom is limited to:

1) Review;
2) Demonstrations or exercises in actual gun handling, using unloaded or nonfunctioning guns;
3) Q&A;
4) Addressing any unique needs or late breaking changes;
5) ID verification and paperwork

It would be a goal to limit the face-to-face classroom time to one hour. This accomplishes several important objectives:
a) It makes smaller classes economically feasible by reducing the instruction and facilities cost.
b) Due to the smaller class size and shorter duration, it opens up alternatives for instruction space that would not otherwise be present, and simplifies scheduling of the range component of the class.
c) It is attractive to students.

== Range qualification ==

We have another thread on this but I think it misses the real point.

The goals of the range qualification are:

a) safety of the range qualification exercise itself
b) verifying that the student can handle a gun safely and effectively, and
c) compliance.

I think that, if I were a firearms instructor dealing with complete strangers of varying and unknown backgrounds, I would start with a blue gun. Once a student has demonstrated muzzle control and basic handling skills, I would move to live fire.

I do not understand why this is not done more, other than the fact that blue guns are expensive, not much fun to own, and not readily available.

Using blue guns also would allow some skills in drawing and reholstering to be taught. Many students will never have done this.

Why there is, among instructors and here at the forum, great attention is given to caliber and round count when short shrift is given to these less glamorous but arguably more important and unfamiliar areas.
Author:  cobb [ Mon May 11, 2009 9:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
princewally wrote:
ecrist wrote:
Liability Insurance: ~$2000/year for General Libability with a $2,000,000 coverage
Accountant: ~FREE (Quickbooks, MYOB, etc)
Website Hosting: ~$5/month, or less.
Credit Card Processing: A static ~2-4% (depends on lots of things, generally not more than 4%, though)
Business Cards: $35/box of 250
Marketing: If you're using forums, etc, free, minus time. My guess is less than $2000/year.
Laptop: Brand-New for ~$600
Projector $300 to $1000 on BestBuy.com today or ~$400 on Craigslist
SoS business registration or filing for assumed name: $120 to $300

-so long as we're at it-
Toothpaste: $1.50
Toothbrush: $0.97
Fuel to drive to venue: ~$10
A day's worth of auto insurance, to drive to/from venue: $2.00
A day's worth of auto payment, to drive to/from venue: $10.00
Clothing on one's back: ~$50
Pens used to fill out paperwork: $2.99
Breakfast, picked up on the way to the class: $5.95
The thrill of charging for material reasonably necessary for a class: priceless ;)

To instruct for a Minnesota carry permit, you only need to be certified to instruct by Minnesota. MADFI, NRA, etc, are all extra, and your choices.



Interesting. Taking these numbers at (more-or-less) face value, I should be charging about $115 per, just to break even. That's not counting cert costs.

Haven't you figured that out when you do your taxes at the end of each year? Or are you maybe not keeping track of your actual expenses? I am always amazed at the end of every year, how much it cost and I mean the small stuff adds up. These cost do not include how much off hour time is spent on the telephone or doing specific research for a student. I do promote the idea that I am there for my students and beleive it or not, have other instructor student contact my with problems because their instructor basically ignored their problem. I do enjoy this and when a problem crops up, or a hard question from one of my students, I do the best to find the right answer for them, it is a challenge and I have learned from every one. Anyway, this takes time, not complaining, just pointing out that I follow through for those that take my class, that is part of what they pay for.
Author:  parap1445 [ Mon May 11, 2009 10:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think it is feasible to have a "minimalist" carry class that seeks only to fulfill the statutory requirements and not sacrifice quality instruction.

The general feeling among the instructors here seems to be that "if we have to do training then lets do it right" and on the one hand I agree.
But then I have the other hand that doesn't agree.

I still have a feeling that self defense and the bearing of arms for that purpose is a right of all law abiding Americans. Because the realities of the political climate necessitated the training requirement to be written into the law doesn't mean that we should need to go beyond that in order to get a piece of paper that in a way is part of the "permission slip" - along with the application form to get a card from the government which allows us to exercise a right which said government should not be infringing on in the first place.

And that is where I feel we should have a carry class which addresses only that which is required by the law. The evidence from other states that require no training shows that there is no correlation between training or no training in incidents of accidents or improper use of carried weapons. So if we have to have a certificate showing we completed some statutory requirement in order to get the permit why not just do what is necessary to satisfy the legal requirement which is (IMO) there to pacify those that believe that responsible citizens can't be trusted to reasonably carry a weapon.
Author:  mrokern [ Mon May 11, 2009 10:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
parap1445 wrote:
I think it is feasible to have a "minimalist" carry class that seeks only to fulfill the statutory requirements and not sacrifice quality instruction.

The general feeling among the instructors here seems to be that "if we have to do training then lets do it right" and on the one hand I agree.
But then I have the other hand that doesn't agree.

I still have a feeling that self defense and the bearing of arms for that purpose is a right of all law abiding Americans. Because the realities of the political climate necessitated the training requirement to be written into the law doesn't mean that we should need to go beyond that in order to get a piece of paper that in a way is part of the "permission slip" - along with the application form to get a card from the government which allows us to exercise a right which said government should not be infringing on in the first place.

And that is where I feel we should have a carry class which addresses only that which is required by the law. The evidence from other states that require no training shows that there is no correlation between training or no training in incidents of accidents or improper use of carried weapons. So if we have to have a certificate showing we completed some statutory requirement in order to get the permit why not just do what is necessary to satisfy the legal requirement which is (IMO) there to pacify those that believe that responsible citizens can't be trusted to reasonably carry a weapon.


Playing devil's advocate, bear in mind that both Alaska and Vermont (well, until recently in Vermont) have traditionally been very politically independent if not blatantly conservative. Minnesota...not so much.

That does have a bearing on what the political backlash would be if a...lesser-trained, for lack of a better word...student would end up in a DGU.

-Mark
Author:  cobb [ Mon May 11, 2009 10:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
parap1445 wrote:
...............and some blah, blah's........


My suggestions, buy yourself a Geo Metro.

Have a great day. 8)
Author:  1911fan [ Mon May 11, 2009 11:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mark, lets play the other sides advocate here.

Lets say you have a class, and all who show up are Todd jarrett, Sam Kersh, Walt Graham, and just for fun, Robbie Latham. All more or less were weaned on firearms, All have played every shooting game ever invented, and for that matter, invented a few themselves. do you really think making them run thirty to one hundred rounds down range is doing anybody any good?

I think it is very egotistical for a lot of the instructors on here to firmly believe they know more about shooting than all of their clients. I know some of the people who are now instructors were asking me and others very newbie questions just a year or two ago. Maybe that is not the feeling in the real world, but that imagery certainly shows thru in the posts I see. I agree with Para. I think for a great many life time shooters a very condensed, time aware class could be very beneficial. I am not here to put down those who feel a very long and detailed class is what is needed. I am here to say there should be an option. As Kimberman observed, the law was written to allow various path to the goal of getting that qual's slip. I agree that class could be constructed with a web based prologue and some sort of interactive response to the reading. If you think that this is an attempt to not pay instructors and some how we are trying to take bread from your kids mouths, no, we are not, Heck for a 3 hour total run time class for renewal, I would pay extra.

A short discussion, Q&A, maybe a easy answer test, and then range time would be very time sensitive, yet legal process.


I am not saying going out and practicing is a bad thing, I am not saying getting training is foolish, I am saying that i see that as beyond the pale of the initial intent of the law.

Mr Cobb, please with all due respect, why the attitude to something being presented in a calm clear voice.?
Author:  cobb [ Mon May 11, 2009 11:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
1911fan wrote:
Mr Cobb, please with all due respect, why the attitude to something being presented in a calm clear voice.?

There is no mister in front of cobb. :wink:

If you are referring to above response by me, it is simple, he wants a Cadillac ride and thinks he should get it at a Geo price. In his post he says "I think" and "I feel", well that's great, I think and I feel that he should do classes of his own, $10 a person and do them at least 3 times a week to meet everybody's needs and schedules, or does this maybe present a logistical problem?
Well "I feel" that it can be done if someone really wants to and "I think" it is a great opportunity for those to do so, so have at it.

This thread was a spin off of another that followed the same lines, someone likes to throw out the what if's and it should be's, but cannot do it themselves, but think others should for their benefit.
Author:  mrokern [ Mon May 11, 2009 11:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
1911fan wrote:
Mark, lets play the other sides advocate here.

Lets say you have a class, and all who show up are Todd jarrett, Sam Kersh, Walt Graham, and just for fun, Robbie Latham. All more or less were weaned on firearms, All have played every shooting game ever invented, and for that matter, invented a few themselves. do you really think making them run thirty to one hundred rounds down range is doing anybody any good?

I think it is very egotistical for a lot of the instructors on here to firmly believe they know more about shooting than all of their clients. I know some of the people who are now instructors were asking me and others very newbie questions just a year or two ago. Maybe that is not the feeling in the real world, but that imagery certainly shows thru in the posts I see. I agree with Para. I think for a great many life time shooters a very condensed, time aware class could be very beneficial. I am not here to put down those who feel a very long and detailed class is what is needed. I am here to say there should be an option. As Kimberman observed, the law was written to allow various path to the goal of getting that qual's slip. I agree that class could be constructed with a web based prologue and some sort of interactive response to the reading. If you think that this is an attempt to not pay instructors and some how we are trying to take bread from your kids mouths, no, we are not, Heck for a 3 hour total run time class for renewal, I would pay extra.

A short discussion, Q&A, maybe a easy answer test, and then range time would be very time sensitive, yet legal process.


I am not saying going out and practicing is a bad thing, I am not saying getting training is foolish, I am saying that i see that as beyond the pale of the initial intent of the law.

Mr Cobb, please with all due respect, why the attitude to something being presented in a calm clear voice.?


Oh PLEASE, let me get those folks in one room at the same time! :lol:

EDIT - I spun the rest of my reply off into the qualification discussion.

-Mark

PS-Wow, just realized that sometime tonight I passed the 1000 post mark. No balloons or party favors? :lol:
Author:  parap1445 [ Mon May 11, 2009 11:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
cobb wrote:
parap1445 wrote:
...............and some blah, blah's........


My suggestions, buy yourself a Geo Metro.

Have a great day. 8)


Perhaps you came into this late. I have said very clearly in previous posts that none of what I say is meant to disparage any of the instructors on this board or anywhere else - or their teaching techniques or current curriculum for that matter. This is a discussion which by the number of posts and the fact that the original thread has been split to several sub topics shows that there are some differing opinions on this topic.

ETA: I am not an author by trade and maybe my use of "I think" or "I feel" in expressing an opinion is wrong. I don't believe I've said anything to the effect that I want a Cadillac at a Geo price. I would be more that all I want is a Geo but I'm being told that as long as I'm buying a car I might as well buy a Cadillac.

mrokern wrote:
Quote:
Playing devil's advocate, bear in mind that both Alaska and Vermont (well, until recently in Vermont) have traditionally been very politically independent if not blatantly conservative. Minnesota...not so much.
Agreed.
Quote:
That does have a bearing on what the political backlash would be if a...lesser-trained, for lack of a better word...student would end up in a DGU.

If the student has met the statutory required training there shouldn't be any undue political backlash. There are those who would engage in backlash even if the student had graduated from every training program in the country. Political backlash being "political" doesn't need to be based on any reason.
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