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Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - "Coconut Charlie" debate
 
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 "Coconut Charlie" debate 
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:57 pm 
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reaver3 wrote:

Magnum Mikie wrote the following quoted comments:

Quote:
That said, I'm curious if Joel or other instructors have attempted to contact Joe Penaz and try to work out any wrinkles or discrepancies you may have rather than discredit him because of his very competitive prices.


Because it's not their job. Besides, it's been made quite clear that the beef is over Penaz's apparently incompetent training, and not his prices. I know of several instructors on this board who have provided low-cost or even free training to people, without complaint from anyone here who feels that such policies cut into their business. There's that "individualized instruction" thing again.

Quote:
It's apparent after reviewing the comments in the links below that there's been an obvious conspiracy to beat down Joe Penaz.


You're probably ascribing way too much importance to Mr. Penaz. My impression is that the instructors here feel that they've already wasted far too much of their time on him, without participating in an organized, anonymous online lynching of the man. The instructors here are better than that.



Just curious Reaver, have you taken a PTC class from Joe Penaz?

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:02 pm 
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reaver3 wrote:
Because it's not their job. Besides, it's been made quite clear that the beef is over Penaz's apparently incompetent training, and not his prices. I know of several instructors on this board who have provided low-cost or even free training to people, without complaint from anyone here who feels that such policies cut into their business.
Yup. If somebody objects to me (and others) giving free training to people with emergency permits, or to many others giving free training to vets and serving military folks, I do hope they'll have the simple courtesy to keep such impertinent, asinine, jejeune objections to themselves.

Hadn't occurred to me to object to some instructors providing free or discount training, and now that the subject's come up, it still hasn't. Yucko.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:51 pm 
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Penaz needs a new WEB Master.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:29 pm 
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Magnum Mikie wrote:
reaver3 wrote:

Magnum Mikie wrote the following quoted comments:

Quote:
That said, I'm curious if Joel or other instructors have attempted to contact Joe Penaz and try to work out any wrinkles or discrepancies you may have rather than discredit him because of his very competitive prices.


Because it's not their job. Besides, it's been made quite clear that the beef is over Penaz's apparently incompetent training, and not his prices. I know of several instructors on this board who have provided low-cost or even free training to people, without complaint from anyone here who feels that such policies cut into their business. There's that "individualized instruction" thing again.

Quote:
It's apparent after reviewing the comments in the links below that there's been an obvious conspiracy to beat down Joe Penaz.


You're probably ascribing way too much importance to Mr. Penaz. My impression is that the instructors here feel that they've already wasted far too much of their time on him, without participating in an organized, anonymous online lynching of the man. The instructors here are better than that.



Just curious Reaver, have you taken a PTC class from Joe Penaz?



Hmmm, it's been a couple hours. Apparently Reaver is unavailable to respond. Btw, I just noticed that somehow I magically became the author of this thread. Oh well!

My guess is that Reaver has not taken a PTC class from Joe Penaz. As matter-of-fact, I wonder if anyone here has been in Joe's class.

Reaver, you speak of "apparent" incompetency. I don't know how your statement has any credibility if you have not taken his class. Otherwise, your comments are nothing but heresay.

I have taken his class so I can speak from "actual" experience. I'll start from the beginning:

1) I got Joe Penaz's name from Larry at Gunstop in Minnetonka.
2) Called Joe a made appointment for the following month.
3) Arrived at Joe's home at 8:45..........class started promptly at 9:00.
4) Took 10 minute break at 10:30.
5) 20 minute lunch break at noon (Joe's wife supplied sandwiches, pop and chips).
6) Class ended at about 2:50 pm and we all headed to BPR for qualifying.
7) Arrived at BPR about 3:30 or so and everyone was done at about 4:30.

Not once did I hear Joe tell students to call Joel Rosenberg or any other instructor for any reason. IIRC, he did recommend a couple of good books to read and recommended a couple of attorneys and to keep their number in your cell phone. Joe thoroughly covered safe gun handling before we left for the range AND again upon arriving at the range. Only one student at a time was allowed in the shooting bay. He did furnish a .22 pistol to a few students
who had not decided what they wanted for a carry gun. We ALL had to "safely" load our own guns (no pre-loading was allowed). Everyone had to hit the target at 7 yards with 10 rds.

As far as "online lynching" of Joe Penaz, me thinks it's happening right now, right here on this forum.

None of the disasters mentioned here even came close to happening in the class I took with Joe. I think we had about 25-30 students in our class. While waiting in BPR lobby before qualifying, all I heard were good things about the class. I've since talked to a Carver County deputy along with a handful of others who took Joe's class. None said anything but good about his class.

Maybe this is out-of-line, but if someone else who's reading this thread has taken Joe's class, by all means please comment.

In ending this response, I'll say one more thing. To me it only makes sense to take additional or renewal PTC classes from someone different each time. I know instructors appreciate repeat students, but I ask you, what can it hurt to learn different techniques or methods? Some instructors might have high skill levels in firearms, some might have skills in the area of legalities. I'm pretty sure more than a few instructors are lawyers which is a plus.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:10 pm 
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Magnum Mikie wrote:
Hmmm, it's been a couple hours. Apparently Reaver is unavailable to respond. Btw, I just noticed that somehow I magically became the author of this thread. Oh well!


Don't be too flattered. :wink:

I'm the mod that split the thread into distinct discussions. Your questions just served as a natural separation point.

-Mark


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 1:05 am 
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Magnum Mikie wrote:

Quote:
Hmmm, it's been a couple hours. Apparently Reaver is unavailable to respond.


Correct. Sorry for not having an instant response and for keeping you waiting. I'm two time zones behind the rest of you, and I do have other interests.

Quote:
My guess is that Reaver has not taken a PTC class from Joe Penaz


You would guess correctly.

My analysis of the situation comes from personal observation of certain details of Penaz's website that Joel recently called my attention to (before the site was scrubbed of them, that is), as well as statements here describing Penaz as not having a thorough working knowledge of the carry laws from Andrew as well as Joel, two men for whom I have enormous respect and affection. They have watched my back in enough serious situations that I trust their analysis and judgment both implicitly and explicitly, and if they say Penaz has issues with his students not knowing or teaching enough of certain topics, well, that's good enough for me.

I also haven't taken any of Ward Churchill's classes at the University of Colorado, but I am equally sure that they are full of nonsense, without ever once having stepped through the door.

I am truly glad that you had a positive experience with Penaz. Everything that I've observed to date seems to point to that being an anomaly, though.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 2:24 am 
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Magnum Mikie wrote:
Not once did I hear Joe tell students to call Joel Rosenberg or any other instructor for any reason.
Well, good. I don't think it was then, or perhaps ever, part of his standard presentation; my guess is that the reason I got all those calls, over the years, is that Joe got calls, and -- at least arguably unwittingly, although repeatedly, over years -- referred them to me, and more lately, to Andrew; he's come close to admitting as much, and has promised to not do the former, and to be very clear, at all times, that his students should call him, and him only, with questions. (I told him that I don't need him to promise who, other than me, his students don't call; none of my affair. Andrew's a friend -- as are many other instructors -- but my feeling is that they can either ask me to help deal with impositions, if they'd like -- I like doing favors for friends, after all -- or deal with such themselves.)
Quote:
I know instructors appreciate repeat students, but I ask you, what can it hurt to learn different techniques or methods?
I don't think it can, as long as they're legitimate. (There is a whole 'nother discussion about mixing point shooting and sighted shooting, but let's save that for another day.) I'm happy to have my students from '04 back for their refreshers this year -- and my prices for refreshers reflect that -- but I don't think they're doing themselves any disservice at all if they go to another good or better (and, yes, I'll say it, explicitly: I think I'm good or better, although I won't claim that I don't have some skin in that game) instructor for their refresher. I know that Cobb and Donnie, for example, spend far more time on the shooting stuff than I do, and I think that somebody who wants that for their renewal should seriously consider taking a class with either of them. Bob Jahn would be another good choice.

Hell, I took my own refresher with David Gross -- and not accidentally, even though it involved some driving -- although he didn't spend much time on the shooting stuff. I think that it might have been possible for Andrew and me to sit in on each others' classes for our own refreshers, and I don't think either of us would have been ill-served by that -- we both went to David, and we both made a great choice.

I'm not sure why you're fixating on the shooting technique stuff, but, well, again: another day. For the time being, I'll just say that I don't think I want to be in the position of defending the necessity of a very demanding qual, but, rather, defending the advisability of a fairly, but not preposterously, modest one -- since that is, after all, my own position.

To make a parallel argument: I'm not going to claim that an instructor's website must be utterly typo and error free; mine isn't.

But I think there is a different between a few typos and the various humongous collections of typos, errors, goof, bloofs, and doofs that are the Penaz eyebleeding websites; I think of them as the online Louvre of typoeage and boobery, despite the bumbling attempts at cleanup that Penaz has, for some reason, engaged in of late.

You'll note, just to pick one example, that he no longer claims to do Counter Terrorist Training. (Sheesh.) To pick just two of the very many that remain, as of two minutes ago, he still does classes in "Boomington," and invites people to "Ask about the 30 gun's for $30 raffle wow." While he certainly has the right to invite people to "Ask about the 30 gun's for $30 raffle wow" it seems a little ... strange were he to complain about somebody pointing out that he's inviting people to "Ask about the 30 gun's for $30 raffle wow" and suggest that such criticism was over the top, out of control, or an online lynching.

Or worse than strange, perhaps.

Is that any help? Or is that just, in your opinion, more "online lynching"? Pfui.

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 Post subject: Well, I got another one
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 5:28 am 
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And, since I've got a few minutes and the coffee's here, let's look at another Penazian strangeness:
Quote:
Joe and Marcia have just returned from Front Sight Gun Training Institute www.FrontSight.com where we attended another 5-day defensive handgun training class. Ask your potential instructor if he has invested the money and had 10 full days of tactical pistol training in the last year so he can train you at the level we can! No one can claim this but PCSD!

Now, let's add in that endorsement from the Penaz student, Magnum Mikie:
Quote:
We ALL had to "safely" load our own guns (no pre-loading was allowed). Everyone had to hit the target at 7 yards with 10 rds.
It would be unfair to point at the "scare quotes" around "safely". So I will. I'm "sure" that it was utterly "great" and that any "concerns" have been dissolved. :lol:

Beyond that, well, sheesh. Does anybody want to seriously suggest that the training at "Front Sight Gun Training Institute" is so darned good that it enables Penaz to make instructional miracles happen in a ten-round qual?

I mean, like: wow. Well, nobody can claim that but "PCSD", that's for sure. What arrogant, arrant puffery . . .

I'm just sorry he didn't get into how fast he can gut a fish. Or lose an engine in a plane.
Quote:
Instrument rated pilot and aircraft owner. Lost two engines in planes.
("Last time I saw it, it was on the wing, but then there was some clanking sound, and, well, you know the rest.")

There are, by the way, instructors -- I'm not one, and don't claim to be -- who have spent a huge amount of time and their own money taking training at various shooting schools, and/or are serious IDPA addicts, and such, and for whom the shooting stuff is a central focus of both their classes, and their interests. They're regulars at places like Gunsite and Thunder Ranch and Ayoob's LFI and the Stressfire course. I may be wrong, but I think Donnie's been to all three, plus Blackwater. I know Professor Olson has done all of those, and some repeatedly, plus Chapman and UFI. Probably others; he's like that.

I think somebody wanting to get a carry permit who would also like a goodly amount of training in shooting would be well-advised to seek out, just to pick a couple, Donnie or Bob.

Much better, I think, would be to take a class from Donnie or Bob (or others) in shooting, separate from their carry permit class; after a full day on the more important stuff, it's hard to spend a lot of time on shooting instruction.

For those folks who want instruction in shooting, I generally recommend Donnie, or Sue, at BPR -- or Brad, if he's available, and say, "they're better at teaching shooting than I am, and they charge less." The reason that I say that is kinda complicated, but I'll explain it, in full: they're better at teaching shooting than I am, and they charge less.

But I don't think I'll be sending folks to Mango Joe Penaz the Carry Pioneer, even though he has bought a package at a second-notch shooting school like Front Sight and has been there, I believe, twice, and, to repeat:

Quote:
Joe and Marcia have just returned from Front Sight Gun Training Institute www.FrontSight.com where we attended another 5-day defensive handgun training class. Ask your potential instructor if he has invested the money and had 10 full days of tactical pistol training in the last year so he can train you at the level we can! No one can claim this but PCSD!
Wow.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:09 am 
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My wife and I took our class from JP in 2004 at his home and it was just the two of us. Our training certs were AACFI and we split the class and shooting into two days. All I can remember is that the delivery of the information was entertaining and seemed to be thorough considering the class was 3-4 hours of slides. Penaz is a character. We did the shoot at Moon Valley (now closed) and the shoot was completely unsupervised. Penaz basically told us to fire down range while he collected brass that looked like it had been in the mud for 30 years.
Based on your post, it sounds like JP may have tightened things up a bit or maybe Roger at BPR requires structure for P2C classes.

In any case, I have taken two classes since from two different instructors here on the board and as a result, I do have less of an appreciation for the class I took from PJ in 2004. My permit expires in July and I plan on going to Gross for the re-up.

Personally I dont like seeing instructors slammed here in public because there is never an opportunity for the instructor to fix things and get a fresh start. However, Joe's WEB site is so ridiculous he is basically painting a target on his back. Add the WEB site and a handful of negative comments from folks/students and the whole thing becomes a big joke.


Magnum Mikie wrote:
<snip>
1) I got Joe Penaz's name from Larry at Gunstop in Minnetonka.
2) Called Joe a made appointment for the following month.
3) Arrived at Joe's home at 8:45..........class started promptly at 9:00.
4) Took 10 minute break at 10:30.
5) 20 minute lunch break at noon (Joe's wife supplied sandwiches, pop and chips).
6) Class ended at about 2:50 pm and we all headed to BPR for qualifying.
7) Arrived at BPR about 3:30 or so and everyone was done at about 4:30.
<snip>
Maybe this is out-of-line, but if someone else who's reading this thread has taken Joe's class, by all means please comment........


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:16 am 
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tepin wrote:
In any case, I have taken two classes since from two different instructors here on the board and as a result, I do have less of an appreciation for the class I took from PJ in 2004. My permit expires in July and I plan on going to Gross for the re-up.
What a horrible choice! It's not like he knows any -- wait. He does, and he's who I went to, and not because he's a friend, although he certainly is.
Quote:

Personally I dont like seeing instructors slammed here in public because there is never an opportunity for the instructor to fix things and get a fresh start.
And that's fair enough. But Joe's had, literally, years to fix things, and I think there are ways he could get a more or less fresh start. He can't erase the history, but he could make some new history.

If he chooses to.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:22 am 
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Agree 100%
joelr wrote:
tepin wrote:

Personally I dont like seeing instructors slammed here in public because there is never an opportunity for the instructor to fix things and get a fresh start.
And that's fair enough. But Joe's had, literally, years to fix things, and I think there are ways he could get a more or less fresh start. He can't erase the history, but he could make some new history.

If he chooses to.


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:23 am 
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mrokern wrote:
Magnum Mikie wrote:
Hmmm, it's been a couple hours. Apparently Reaver is unavailable to respond. Btw, I just noticed that somehow I magically became the author of this thread. Oh well!


Don't be too flattered. :wink:

I'm the mod that split the thread into distinct discussions. Your questions just served as a natural separation point.

-Mark


Truthfully Mark, I'm not flattered at all because I'm not the original author of this thread and really don't want late-comers to think I am :shock:

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 Post subject: "Coconut Charlie" debate
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:42 am 
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Location: Eden Prairie
I’m not completely comfortable with posting this as I’m afraid that it might be misconstrued as a personal trashing of Joe. I’m going to post this anyway because I believe it is important for this information to be disseminated. Others can take what I say and make their own decision.

About a year ago I took the class from Joe P. along with 4 friends and my wife whom I convinced to take the class with me. Two of my friends were renewing.

I don’t want to be specific about any one thing, but all of the negatives that I have read here would be things that I would echo.

The outcome of taking the class for my group has not been something to write home about. 2 of the friends never applied for their permit and are planning to retake the class from another instructor. My wife, after much prodding, got her permit but is not comfortable carrying except at the efn breakfast. She would like to take another class as well. The two that were renewing have been giving me the “stink eye” every time the subject comes up.

Ok, so I admit I stepped in the stinky spot big time. I was drawn in to the cheap price and the location. Boy do I feel stupid!!

On a positive note, Joe seems to be a good salesman. He has a real nice dog, lots of nice tools and I like what he has done with his yard. Ok, so I made up the part about the yard.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, I got another one
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:45 am 
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joelr wrote:
And, since I've got a few minutes and the coffee's here, let's look at another Penazian strangeness:
Quote:
Joe and Marcia have just returned from Front Sight Gun Training Institute www.FrontSight.com where we attended another 5-day defensive handgun training class. Ask your potential instructor if he has invested the money and had 10 full days of tactical pistol training in the last year so he can train you at the level we can! No one can claim this but PCSD!

Now, let's add in that endorsement from the Penaz student, Magnum Mikie:
Quote:
We ALL had to "safely" load our own guns (no pre-loading was allowed). Everyone had to hit the target at 7 yards with 10 rds.
It would be unfair to point at the "scare quotes" around "safely". So I will. I'm "sure" that it was utterly "great" and that any "concerns" have been dissolved. :lol:

Beyond that, well, sheesh. Does anybody want to seriously suggest that the training at "Front Sight Gun Training Institute" is so darned good that it enables Penaz to make instructional miracles happen in a ten-round qual?



Joel, I imagine that Joe and Marcia's training at Front Sight Institute would reflect on classes other than PTC. If you look further on his site you'll notice he teaches a variety of defense classes. Most involve firearms. And, yes he does sell a few misc accessories like holsters and shirts. Other instructors might sell books for example.

http://www.concealcarry.net/Products/index.htm

So, are we to assume that Mr. Penaz should be crucified because he has expanded product base and isn't a highly polished website designer?

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 Post subject: Re: Well, I got another one
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 7:01 am 
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Magnum Mikie wrote:

So, are we to assume that Mr. Penaz should be crucified because he has expanded product base and isn't a highly polished website designer?


Maybe crucified is a little strong, but the coding and tags using the reputations, names, training, and the sites of others to drive traffic to your own Circus Wal-Mart site is unethical. Not to mention a guy that full of himself should be able to actually answer pertinent questions correctly, instead of pawning them off on the instructors who are professional enough to know the answer?
That's enough for me.


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