I took Joe's class about a year and a half ago.

I also sat in on a class given by one of the instructors who is a regular contributor here.

In my opinion both were good classes. I found both to be quite informative. In fact, if someone were to ask me which of the two they should take their class from, I would base the answer on geography. Go to the closest one.

Yup; you mentioned that you might be doing that back in February, and I know some folks made the offer, and have wondered, from time to time, whatever came of it -- who you took the class from, and the details and all. Still am, actually.

Yup.

And, honest, I don't get it. His websites are an eyesore, and he could easily afford a top-flight web designer, much less some journeyman type who could get the whole job in under a couple thousand, if he doesn't want to learn how to do it himself.

Easy proof. All his classes fill up . . .
... so let's run a little math. Looking at his schedule, he's got six classes in May; I'm guessing that he has more some months, and maybe a few less some others. Let's modestly assume that he fills his classes at 25 (yes, I know it's more, and I don't mean to slight the guy, but we're being conservative here) and that each and every one of them is doing the lowest-price $55 renewal.

That comes in a slow month -- remember, his always-filled classes actually are going to be larger than that, typically, and he's got higher prices on weekend or weekdays (I forget, and I don't want to go look at his website again, okay?) -- $8250.00. He gives out a CD with each class and his wife makes six lunches for a total of 150 people? Okay, let's have her serve a fine Hungarian Goulash, figure $8/head and knock it down to $7K. In a bad month.

Nice work. Cool.

In this market, finding a web guy to bang out a decent website at $100 hour is easy. I'm not a decent web guy, but I could build a workmanlike, single-page website from scratch in six hours, given text and graphics to work with. (Hell, I could do one in Robohelp, complete with graphics, text, ToC, index and search function in half that time, come to think of it.)

A pro could do a simple one in half that. (Again, we're not talking about complicated stuff -- just some basic html and maybe a few java buttons or javascript doohickeys, with some good reporting, just in case he wants to upgrade later, plugged into the online store package he already owns.)

So we're at $300 --less than 5% of one months' earnings -- for a decent, workmanlike website that looks, well, good.

Oops. Forgot the art. There's all sorts of photos available for less than $50 for web stuff. Let's have him buy four.

We're up to $500. That should be -- nope. You caught me: yes, I'm cheating, and I'll stop now: Joe is not a copywriter, and there's nothing wrong with that, and please don't say I say there is.

Most people aren't. (I am -- yes, I've gotten paid for it, both staff and freelance -- among other things, and no, I'm not trying to drum up business; I'm not available for this at any price, as I don't do conflicts of interest, and he shouldn't want to hire me, anyway.) He needs to find one; here's some.

The market is horrible, these days, but I'll set the price preposterously high, just for funzies: $125 hour, and figure a simple website job like this, given the material that the guy would have to work with, and that he'd have to coordinate with the designer ...

Call it four hours work, and since he's working with the designer, we add on a couple of hours of his time, too. We're not talking about going through the whole interview and research process -- Joe's already clear what his value proposition is, and what features he's selling. We're just talking about putting what he's already got into English and a light buff and polish.

We're at $1200 for the whole job -- design, art, and text. That's less than a week's income for him, and remember, I'm pricing the job high (although not absurdly) and his income low.

I'm shocked that he hasn't done it. I just don't get it.

It's worse than that. He could hire a high school geek to bang out a website in a couple of evenings for a couple of hundred dollars, start to finish. Find someone with an A in English and an html habit. It's usually not hard to convince them to throw a website into their portfolio.

I've got nothing to add other thant I just wanted to post in a mega-thread.

I do have a friend that took a class from Joe, he felt it was decent all around. But then again, I would take a gander that his opine would change if he was to take a class from almost any of the instructors here.

I've sat in and taken class from several on here, and everyone has their strong points and soft spots, but all in all, good guys.

Yep, my brother is a college student in graphic and web design. I'm sure he'd be willing to do it for $500. He needs the money to pay for his class and permit now that he picked up a very nice Kimber!

Your "mega thread" post probably best summarizes all posts in this thread with very few words dispensed.

One issue hasn't been discussed as of yet. I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but not the dimmest one either and for me, there is alot, I'll repeat, ALOT of stuff to absorb in a PTC class and I'm sure that not everybody can remember everything covered in the class (I'm also not good at taking notes). Just an idea, but how feasible would it be for instructors to video their class and sell copies to students so they can watch it again to catch what they might have missed the first time? Like I said, it's just an idea!

As far as PTC classes go, I'll have to continue to disagree with Joel about Joe until my renewal is due. As I mentioned to him in a PM, I plan on taking my renewal class with Joel if he is still in business when I'm due.

In the mean time, I carry everyday, everywhere I go. Usually a 1911 .45 in winter and a Bersa .380 or CZ82 in summer. Sometimes I double-up with a LCP in my pocket.

I'm sure that nobody can remember everything covered in a class. Nobody.

Now, since I'm feeling snarky, I'll just muse that, ah, if only there were some way to preserve that which is to be taught, in advance, in some portable form -- say, ink printed upon dead trees, bound in some form that could be reviewed anywhere there was sufficient light, be it artificial or natural, and include not just some things people might wish to remember, later, on the subject of carry, but, I dunno, everything that you need to know about (legally) carrying a handgun in Minnesota.



Ah. Nah; I better not. You won't, but folks like ecrist will just say I'm trying to sell books . . .

Were it another instructor -- or if another instructor comes along who wants a decent design -- they could always ask my daughter Judy if she wants to earn some money. She's good at design (kinda freaked her teachers out at how good), and a terrific writer (ditto; I don't know where she gets that), is more familiar with laws and issues around carry than most good instructors* and all the inadequate ones and she could use the bucks.

But her agent -- that would be me, for now -- won't let her work cheap.

_______________________
* Andrew has not let her see the MADFI pre-test, but I'll put her up against any other instructor (although I'll have to ask for a handicap if it's Paul, David, Berris, Olson, or any other attorney/good instructor). There's a few non-lawyer instructors I think could beat her, but that's okay -- they wouldn't be able to beat her by much.

Joel, no offense, but reading books ranks right up there with taking notes during the class. Videos are easier, and for me, faster as I'm a slow reader.

It took a bunch of effort on my part to finish reading Chris Bird's "The Concealed Handgun Manual". IIRC, it took me about a week to read. I'd much rather watch a 6-7 hour video

I'll get right on it, just as soon as I can teach Megan Fox how to teach a carry class, and persuade her to be in front of the camera.

"Now, teach me that again. Slowly."

*** WARNING SELF PROMOTION ***

On the side I do web design myself, mostly for political organizations. I occasionally partner with a guy whose one of the best and charges $115 hourly. Personally I charge $75 hourly because quite honestly I'm not as fast.

I might be persuaded to put together a site for him, but not for any special rates. Figure $500 for a new site, plus probably $100 for graphics. As Joel indicates that should be peanuts for him.

*** END SELF PROMOTION ***

All that said, even if you polish an apple to an mirror shine, that's not going to change the fact that it has worms in it, and I don't want any. Moreover it's probably going to infest the rest of the basket.

Oh, noes! Putting actual effort into something this important? The horror!

People have different learning styles; visual, auditory & kinesthetic learners. Most folks tend to have a 30/30/40 type of split between the 3. Some folks on the other hand are heavily biased towards a particular style. For example I'm right about 70% when it comes to auditory learning and communications. (Big suprise, right? The guy who dabbles in and out of the broadcasting biz)

A video may not be a bad idea actually.

I always heard that as, "you can polish a turd, but you can't make it shine."