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 "Coconut Charlie" debate 
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:35 pm 
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joelr wrote:
Oh, that'd be fun, too. I'd be happy to put on a presentation of the full TCCarry classroom stuff -- I'll even add some bells and whistles, although no watermelon-shooting-videos! -- as a fundraiser for GOCRA, as long as somebody else will set it up and fill the seats for the event; I'm preposterously lazy, after all. And you don't even have to provide Penaz or anybody else on a different day, although you're welcome to, and I think that's a great idea. Go for it!

But the challenge stands.


Now, Joel, some of us like watermelon-shooting videos...

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:56 pm 
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chunkstyle wrote:
joelr wrote:
Oh, that'd be fun, too. I'd be happy to put on a presentation of the full TCCarry classroom stuff -- I'll even add some bells and whistles, although no watermelon-shooting-videos! -- as a fundraiser for GOCRA, as long as somebody else will set it up and fill the seats for the event; I'm preposterously lazy, after all. And you don't even have to provide Penaz or anybody else on a different day, although you're welcome to, and I think that's a great idea. Go for it!

But the challenge stands.


Now, Joel, some of us like watermelon-shooting videos...
Not that there's anything wrong with that.

In fact, I think they're fun, and there's good uses for engine lubricants, bowling balls, antiviral wipes, award-winning real estate website designs*, small plots of land up north with trees on them and all . . . and while I'm not a big fan (and doubt Fackler is, although I wish somebody would check with him; I'm an admirer, but I've never spoken to the guy) of Extreme Shock Fang Face Antiterrorist rounds -- if I ever have to shoot a buck-toothed terrorist, which I think is improbable, I bet the Federal EFMJ will do just fine, I'm sure that there's some use for it, somewhere . . .

. . . but they don't go in TCCarry.

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*Although, honest, before last night I hadn't ever heard of awards for real estate seller websites. What do they call them, the "Flippies"? Does Shade have a half dozen "Flippies" gathering dust on his mantelpiece during this . . . lull in the ability of realtors to pay the big bux for his "award winning" realtor website designs?

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:21 am 
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I took my class from Joe Penaz last summer. I thought his class was excellent, and I came away very impressed with how and what was covered. I have not taken a class from anyone else, so I guess I have no way to compare. After the class, my opinion was that I just got way more than my moneys worth. I was so impressed that I assumed the class with Joe was better than most others out there...

I recomended Joe to several other people, and they came back with much the same opinion of the class. Joe is definitely a character, but aren't we all, in our own way? I would gladly take a class from someone else, If I didn't have to pay for it, so I could compare and contrast them for anyone who wants to know. With that said, I will deffinitely be taking my renewal class from someone else, as I beleive it would be benificial to learn from more than one point of view / philosophy.....just makes sense to me.

As far as some of the "fine" points of the class, I think it is stupid for instructors to require complicated qualifying shoots, if the law doesn't require it. For one, I don't beleive the instructor has the legal right to deny someone a "pass" if they met the requirements of the state law. If they were to "fail" someone, and then the person didn't get their permit, and was subsequently killed in a mugging, wouldn't that persons family have legal rights to go after the instructor that wrongfully failed them? After all, they met the requirements of the law?

My brother took his class from Bill's Gun Shop, and after several conversations with him, I feel I got a much better class than he did. My class started at about 8am, and I didn't leave the range tell LATE afternoon.

Joe covers the required stuff, sometimes rather quickly, and spends time on what really matters (at least to me). He spent a lot of time disscusing Moral and Ethical use of deadly force, confrontation avoidance, etc. Ultimately, it does not matter what the law says, because a jury will end up decieding if a shooting is justified or not, and YOU will have to live with your decision to use deadly force. I actually think this is more important, because face it, if you are in a situation where you use dealy force, obviosly you were in fear for your life. I would rather make the right decision and spend 10 years to LIFE in Jail, than to be dead. (and not be in jail, because I followed the law).

As far as "requiring" peopel to use their "carry" gun in the qualification, I think that is kind of dumb too. Many people's idea of what they want to use as a carry gun, is going to CHANGE after taking a permit class....I would venture a guess that 80% of people might reconsider what they thought would be the right carry gun, after a class. I hadn't even bought a carry gun before I attended the class. I used what I learned at the class to help me select my first carry gun, and I am very glad I waited, because Joe exposed me to so many things I did not know.

Joe never said anything bad about any other instructors, but he did say, that there were some people that did not like him.

That's just my 2c on this issue.....I would recomend Joe to anyone who is allready fairly familiar with handguns, and fairly proficient in their use. If not, I would recomend a class that is 2 parts, first being the safety, familiarity and use of handguns, then the carry class. I sent my Wife to Bills Gun shop for her class, because that is precisely what they offer.

She completed the familiarity portion, and is now much more comfortable around guns, and is ready to go shooting with me, learn more, and become more comfortable. When she is ready, she will go back for the carry class. After that, continuing training for the both of us is in order.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:51 am 
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Nitro wrote:
I took my class from Joe Penaz last summer. I thought his class was excellent, and I came away very impressed with how and what was covered. I have not taken a class from anyone else, so I guess I have no way to compare.
Yup. Be interesting to see what would happen if you take a class from a more respected instructor -- Paul, say.
Nitro wrote:
As far as some of the "fine" points of the class, I think it is stupid for instructors to require complicated qualifying shoots, if the law doesn't require it. For one, I don't beleive the instructor has the legal right to deny someone a "pass" if they met the requirements of the state law. If they were to "fail" someone, and then the person didn't get their permit, and was subsequently killed in a mugging, wouldn't that persons family have legal rights to go after the instructor that wrongfully failed them?
Nope.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:21 pm 
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I see that Joe is offering a free class for college students. Although I already have a permit to carry and took my class from Cobb, maybe it'd be interesting to go check out this "Coconut Charlie" character that everyone seems to be talking about...


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:25 pm 
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rudy wrote:
I see that Joe is offering a free class for college students. Although I already have a permit to carry and took my class from Cobb, maybe it'd be interesting to go check out this "Coconut Charlie" character that everyone seems to be talking about...
Oh, please, please do. I'd love to see the comparison, although I'm not sure that Mango Joe will.

(Cobb, I strongly suspect, will be losing no sleep worrying that he'll suffer by comparison -- except, perhaps, in his bowling ball drilling and lubricant sales abilities, which may, for all I know, be lacking. I do not think that a flaw, as he's not a bowling ball drilling lubricant sales guy. )

Please. June 27 is the date; please register ASAP, and remember, come June 28, there will be lots of folks eagerly awaiting your report.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:46 pm 
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Nitro"As far as "requiring" peopel to use their "carry" gun in the qualification, I think that is kind of dumb too. [/quote][quote="Nitro wrote:
As far as some of the "fine" points of the class, I think it is stupid for instructors to require complicated qualifying shoots,


I think that "complicated qualifying shoots" are stupid, too, but I don't think that requiring the student to demonstrate proficiency loading, unloading and shooting some defensive-caliber gun is "complicated" or "dumb." I think it's the bare minimum of "...instruction in the fundamentals of pistol use [and] successful completion of an actual shooting qualification exercise...."

Sending a student down the road without ever seeing them load, unload and shoot a "real" gun? That sounds dumb.

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I don't beleive the instructor has the legal right to deny someone a "pass" if they met the requirements of the state law.


Your beliefs are mildly interesting, but have nothing to do with the actual law.

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Ultimately, it does not matter what the law says, because a jury will end up decieding if a shooting is justified or not, and YOU will have to live with your decision to use deadly force. I actually think this is more important, because face it, if you are in a situation where you use dealy force, obviosly you were in fear for your life.


Spelling aside, there are some serious errors of in your statement. I would really suggest you take a class that helps you to understand what the law really is. I'll give you some hints:

1. "Fear," in self defense law, has nothing to do with your emotional state.
2. It does matter what the law says. The jury will get their instructions from that law.

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Last edited by Andrew Rothman on Fri May 22, 2009 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:58 pm 
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I'll be snarky, but accurate: that level of misunderstanding that Nitro is demonstrating is not unique in Penaz's students. As some of you know, I've been joking for some time that I really want to put on a surcharge for people taking TCCarry who got their carry permits with a Penaz certificate, as almost invariably there's a lot that they've got to unlearn.

Penaz claims that he "was trained by Joe Olson, the attorney who wrote the law." (That is the sort of oversimplification I'd expect from Penaz.) It's clear that Joe Penaz just didn't get, when his body was in the room but his mind was perhaps elsewhere, the implications of Boyce and Pendleton and Sanford when it comes to issues around both self-defense and defense of dwelling.

Boiling this stuff down for folks who are going to carry isn't as simple as Penaz thinks it is; if it was, he'd do it better. Gotta listen, Mango Joe. And think, dammit.

Here's Sanford, by the way; we can discuss that in another area, if anybody wants to. <a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=mn&vol=appunpub\0012\604&invol=1">http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=mn&vol=appunpub\0012\604&invol=1</a>

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:59 pm 
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I can't recall if State v. Carothers is covered in "the book" (I should re-read it), but it presents a good summary of self-defense and defense-of-dwelling issues as well.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/MNSP ... efense.pdf

Also look up Minnesota v. Gumtow for a good example of why you shouldn't insert yourself into someone else's conflict:

http://www.lawlibrary.state.mn.us/archi ... 04/663.htm

And, just for fun, State v. Nystrom is an example of what is clearly NOT self-defense in any way, shape, or form - but it does address the "bad neighborhood" defense, at least in part:

http://www.lawlibrary.state.mn.us/archi ... 981259.htm

FWIW, I've met all of these defendants in my former professional capacity at Stillwater and Oak Park Heights. They are all still there, as far as I know.


Last edited by Erik_Pakieser on Fri May 22, 2009 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:08 pm 
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Nitro wrote:
Ultimately, it does not matter what the law says, because a jury will end up decieding if a shooting is justified or not, and YOU will have to live with your decision to use deadly force. I actually think this is more important, because face it, if you are in a situation where you use dealy force, obviosly you were in fear for your life.


:shock: Um, no. While you're welcome to your opinion, that's a very dangerous one to have. The law matters. A lot.

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I would rather make the right decision and spend 10 years to LIFE in Jail, than to be dead. (and not be in jail, because I followed the law).


I'd rather do neither. Hence, be able to shoot, and shoot well (that's the "stay alive" part), and to know the law (that's the "not be Bubba's bitch" part).

-Mark


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 Post subject: Idle thought . . .
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:13 pm 
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. . . has anybody been wondering if -- without doing anything at all unlawful, improper, or dishonest -- we could get ICanHazGunpermit.com certified as an Instructor Org?

"I will takes class from Joe Penaz at least once every two yearz to keep up my instructor proficiencies! Wow!! He does a greats jobses, like he says on his website, 'or the BCA would pull us from the list of instructors.' And since u has not pulled him, he rulez, and we gets to rulez tooo!"

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:26 pm 
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Well, sure, but wouldn't someone have to be willing to put their name to that? Not that it's a big secret who's behind it or anything, just that it's, well, [img]yucky[/img], in the "makes me shiver" sense of the term.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:39 pm 
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Jeremiah wrote:
Well, sure, but wouldn't someone have to be willing to put their name to that? Not that it's a big secret who's behind it or anything, just that it's, well, [img]yucky[/img], in the "makes me shiver" sense of the term.


Oh, it's yucky. But there's a point behind it. I mean, we've had folks defending Penaz on the grounds that it's unreasonable to demand of a carry permit student anything more than the dead bang minimum that the law allows, and weeping wailing that my own, very modest 30-round qual is somehow a horrible imposition.

So let's skip right to the qual. One round from a pre-loaded .22 which is already properly mounted on the CCWInstaQualSafetyMount (you might call it by its proper name: "the Ransom Rest"). Mount it upside down to make reloading easier. Insert the mag, rack the slide, and each student walks up and pulls the trigger once, fulfilling the shadiest of shady practices fulfillment of the "actual shooting qualification exercise," cause they'd actually be firing a real gun, with a real cartridge and all. CCW could brag that unlike that torturous Penaz ten-round qual, he's the one who really won't put people through anything beyond the minimum the law allows . . .

And, after nine rounds, with the tenth chambered, the instructor pops the mag and inserts a fresh one, so nobody ever has to go through that awfully demanding evolution of safely reloading . . .

But, yeah. Who bells the cat?

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:43 pm 
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Nitro wrote:
II actually think this is more important, because face it, if you are in a situation where you use dealy force, obviosly you were in fear for your life.
... and they all moved away from him on the Group W bench.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:50 pm 
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joelr wrote:
Nitro wrote:
II actually think this is more important, because face it, if you are in a situation where you use dealy force, obviosly you were in fear for your life.
... and they all moved away from him on the Group W bench.


Bonus points to all you get the Group W reference! Happy Thanksgiving...

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