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Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - Shooting qualification requirements discussion
 
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 Shooting qualification requirements discussion 
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:52 am 
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singhcr wrote:
That's good to know that I could qualify with a .22 if I needed to. Right now I have some severe tendonitis in my wrists so I am very sensitive to vibration- it will be a while before I can shoot anything larger than a .22 but I'd still like to get my carry permit.
Oh, absolutely. I don't think there's any permit instructor I know who wouldn't be happy to have somebody in that situation shoot their qual with a .22, including me. (I bring a .22 along just for that sort of thing.)

Tendonitis, arthritis, real hand strength issues, the tinnitus problem one guy had . . . I can have somebody in any situation like that shoot the thirty-round qual with a .22 with an utterly clear conscience, and have.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 4:03 pm 
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joelr wrote:
You're making a terrific argument as to why instruction of any sort should be optional, and not mandatory, under the law.

I fully agree, and have said so, repeatedly. I agreed years ago; I still do.


Here's where I get confused, you agree that the "instruction of any sort should be optional, and not mandatory, under the law." I agree with that also. But due to political necessity, it is mandated by the law. Yet if an instructor chooses to teach only that which is mandated by the statute, including a course of fire that is of a lessor standard than yours. He is (quoting myself from a post in the minimalist thread) automatically pilloried as being wrong or a substandard instructor.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 5:09 pm 
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I posted this on the other thread and am posting it here so that there is no misunderstanding of my position.


Quote:
wo items of business.


First, I am carrying on this discussion with ALL DUE RESPECT to the others. I am NOT intending for anything I say here to be seen as anything other than constructive dialog. IF my tone or your reading of my intended tone, does not show that respect then I humbly apologize, and offer to buy you are beer as a token of regret.

Secondly. As a tag to that. Joel asked me to name names. I will not. Simply, I do not want to be seen as tearing anyone in specific down. This was a subject that got some people riled up. That was not my intention. I was hoping to get people thinking, but not anger them. I failed. sorry.
I would see naming some names particularly some who are not members to be unfair and a bit underhanded. I did not mean to imply that they did not teach a good course, but that some ( a very few in particular,) had an ego issue where they believed they had to show their superiority over students to maintain credibility.

I hope this is taken in the spirit it is written, and the readers understand I have issues regarding some facets of the way the instructor community has evolved into a body that seems to extend the limits of the law in a some what arbitrary way. I am not naming names, I am not pointing fingers at individuals, I am raising what I believe to be legitimate questions about the way the process has gone.

Thanks.

over

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 5:16 pm 
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parap1445 wrote:
Yet if an instructor chooses to teach only that which is mandated by the statute, including a course of fire that is of a lessor standard than yours. He is (quoting myself from a post in the minimalist thread) automatically pilloried as being wrong or a substandard instructor.


I think the pertinent distinction there (to me at least,others may feel free to add more) is that he's marketing himself as just as good as or better than any other instructor out there. When one can rather exhaustively demonstrate (and I think it has) that he's not.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 5:33 pm 
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parap1445 wrote:
joelr wrote:
You're making a terrific argument as to why instruction of any sort should be optional, and not mandatory, under the law.

I fully agree, and have said so, repeatedly. I agreed years ago; I still do.


Here's where I get confused, you agree that the "instruction of any sort should be optional, and not mandatory, under the law." I agree with that also. But due to political necessity, it is mandated by the law. Yet if an instructor chooses to teach only that which is mandated by the statute, including a course of fire that is of a lessor standard than yours. He is (quoting myself from a post in the minimalist thread) automatically pilloried as being wrong or a substandard instructor.
Yup. Because I think "what's reasonable to do" and "what's the legal minimum required by law" are two very different things.

If not, I'd be critical of the folks in PA, say, who teach carry classes at all -- as they aren't required by law, at all.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:25 pm 
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kecker wrote:
parap1445 wrote:
Yet if an instructor chooses to teach only that which is mandated by the statute, including a course of fire that is of a lessor standard than yours. He is (quoting myself from a post in the minimalist thread) automatically pilloried as being wrong or a substandard instructor.


I think the pertinent distinction there (to me at least,others may feel free to add more) is that he's marketing himself as just as good as or better than any other instructor out there. When one can rather exhaustively demonstrate (and I think it has) that he's not.
God, I hope he isn't. I really, really do.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:17 pm 
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joelr wrote:
Quote:
Yup. Because I think "what's reasonable to do" and "what's the legal minimum required by law" are two very different things.

If not, I'd be critical of the folks in PA, say, who teach carry classes at all -- as they aren't required by law, at all.


In a perfect world there would be no mandated training to obtain a P2C.
Hell, in a perfect world you wouldn't need a permit at all. I think we agree on that.
But if the training is mandated by law, I think it is acceptable to fulfill only that mandate and one need not take it any further. On that I think we disagree. Fair enough.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 6:55 am 
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parap1445 wrote:
In a perfect world there would be no mandated training to obtain a P2C.
Hell, in a perfect world you wouldn't need a permit at all. I think we agree on that.

In a perfect world, every kid would taught enough about guns while growing up that by the time he was old enough to carry he'd know how to be safe.

I don't think the government has any business mandating training. And I don't think the government mandate actually accomplishes anything. The responsible folks will make sure that they know how to carry safely, regardless of the law, and the irresponsible folks will ignore the law.

But I do think that every person who decides to carry a gun has an obligation to ensure that they know how to do so, safely. And while some of them may already have sufficient understanding of safe firearms practice to do without a class, I see nothing at all wrong with those who feel they do not seeking out a instructor that teaches firearms safety.

Or, since we're stuck with this mandated class, for an instructor to offer a class that includes more safety training than is required by law.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:52 am 
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jdege wrote:
parap1445 wrote:
In a perfect world there would be no mandated training to obtain a P2C.
Hell, in a perfect world you wouldn't need a permit at all. I think we agree on that.

In a perfect world, every kid would taught enough about guns while growing up that by the time he was old enough to carry he'd know how to be safe.

I don't think the government has any business mandating training. And I don't think the government mandate actually accomplishes anything. The responsible folks will make sure that they know how to carry safely, regardless of the law, and the irresponsible folks will ignore the law.

But I do think that every person who decides to carry a gun has an obligation to ensure that they know how to do so, safely. And while some of them may already have sufficient understanding of safe firearms practice to do without a class, I see nothing at all wrong with those who feel they do not seeking out a instructor that teaches firearms safety.

Or, since we're stuck with this mandated class, for an instructor to offer a class that includes more safety training than is required by law.


+1 and Amen. Was trying to think of something above that I might disagree with. Can't seem to find it, tho.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:44 pm 
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jdege wrote:
parap1445 wrote:
In a perfect world there would be no mandated training to obtain a P2C.
Hell, in a perfect world you wouldn't need a permit at all. I think we agree on that.

In a perfect world, every kid would taught enough about guns while growing up that by the time he was old enough to carry he'd know how to be safe.

I don't think the government has any business mandating training. And I don't think the government mandate actually accomplishes anything. The responsible folks will make sure that they know how to carry safely, regardless of the law, and the irresponsible folks will ignore the law.

But I do think that every person who decides to carry a gun has an obligation to ensure that they know how to do so, safely. And while some of them may already have sufficient understanding of safe firearms practice to do without a class, I see nothing at all wrong with those who feel they do not seeking out a instructor that teaches firearms safety.

Or, since we're stuck with this mandated class, for an instructor to offer a class that includes more safety training than is required by law
.



Sorry to bring this back, but I was off line for several days.

The bold in the quote above is mine, sorry if that is considered changing someone else’s writing.

This is where some of you make no sense to me. You all seem to agree that the training should not be mandatory, yet include training elements that are over and well above what the law requires. That does not cut it. I fail to understand someone claiming that we should not be subjected to regulation, and then claiming that since we are, I am going to make that regulation stricter than the law demands. That is double talk.

Hence, my original post asking if anyone would pass a student, who knowing full well your specific requirements, still fired his pistol one time and demanded to be passed. If his reasoning was that the training should not be mandatory, yet, because it is, I have fulfilled the laws requirements, why should he not be passed? Why do instructors feel they get to decide what elements must be taught, when those elements are more than the law requires?

We bitch about those bureaucrats who add regulations when they are not authorized and demand they be drawn and quartered, yet, because you are now a certified instructor you get to decide what additional regulations are ok? In my mind that is the pot calling the kettle black.

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 5:02 am 
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Moby Clarke wrote:

Hence, my original post asking if anyone would pass a student, who knowing full well your specific requirements, still fired his pistol one time and demanded to be passed. If his reasoning was that the training should not be mandatory, yet, because it is, I have fulfilled the laws requirements, why should he not be passed?
If you can find an instructor to pass you, in that situation -- and you probably can -- go to it.
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Why do instructors feel they get to decide what elements must be taught, when those elements are more than the law requires?
Ah. I see the problem. Again. I don't get to decide what the minimum the law requires is; I'm not the legislature. When you're ready to work to get the law changed to Alaska-style, let me know; I'll be happy to help, a little. (I think it's a quixotic quest, mind you, but to paraphrase a wise man, if you want to get the bugs on your windshield over this, I'll be happy to draft in your wake, some. Pinky swear.)

If you can find a class that, say, doesn't cover the concealment issue at all (and since there's no legal requirement in Minnesota to conceal, any discussion of it is beyond what the law requires, after all) take it. Not my problem.

If you can find a class that, say, doesn't cover how to comport yourself in the aftermath of the use or threat of lethal force (and since there's no legal requirement in Minnesota to shut up and lawyer up after, any discussion of it is beyond what the law requires, after all) take it. That should be easier.

If you can find a class that, say, doesn't cover holster selection at all (and since there's no legal requirement in Minnesota to use or not use a holster, after all, any discussion of it is beyond what the law requires, after all) take it. Enjoy.

But you're using the passive voice -- it's not a question of "what must be taught" but what the requirements for my class are. The law doesn't say, for example, that a carry class must be taught be me, and on May 30, and at the AmericInn in Chanhassen [advt.]. It's perfectly legal for a carry class to be taught, that day, or another, at the scuba shop in EP. Nothing wrong with that at all; I've done classes there. Reasonable facility; Randy's a great guy.

But if you show up on May 30 at the scuba shop, I can promise you one thing: I'm not signing off on the certificate for the class there (I don't think there is one there that day) even though, if you took a class there, it might well be legally sufficient.
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We bitch about those bureaucrats who add regulations
Let's come back to those words: "bureaucrats" and "regulations".
Quote:
when they are not authorized and demand they be drawn and quartered,
I'll be happy with "given an expensive admonishment by a judge" if somebody wants to set up a test case. Let me know; I'll help with that, too, although I think that's doable, and not quixotic. Just take a fair amount of work -- who wants to bell that cat? You've got a lot of time to tell me what I should and shouldn't do in my classes -- willing to put in your time, and your money, on that? Cool. It'll take some, but it might be worthwhile.
Quote:
yet, because you are now a certified instructor you get to decide what additional regulations are ok?
Nope. I don't make regulations; the BCA does.
Quote:
In my mind that is the pot calling the kettle black.
Sure; but that's just because you're refusing to wrap your mind around the differeence; you've got this idee fixe that, say, me setting the requirements for TCCarry (something I have every right to do) as including a pretty modest 30-round qual is the same as some sheriff adding additional restrictions, beyond what the law requires for somebody getting his permit (something the law specifically prohibits), and, no, they're not only not the same thing, they're utterly different. Because, well, I'm not a bureaucrat (governmental or otherwise) and the conditions I set for the sale of my services aren't regulations. The law also doesn't say that the student must be wearing clothes during the class, or forbid the guy from having a colander on his head, nor prohibit him from annoying the other students by jumping up and down and yelling, "Noodles, noodles!" every five minutes.

You can't take my classes wearing nothing but a colander and shouting that stuff. I don't think you'd want to, but even if you do, you can't. No, none of that is covered by the law -- but you can't do it, even if you think you have the right. You don't.

I think the one-shot qual would be a shady practice, intended to perhaps meet the technical requirements of 624.714, while skirting the intent. And think it is bad, and it looks bad. It might be legal, but I wouldn't do it.

Got it?

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 5:41 am 
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Moby -- and others -- have been disagreeing with me, for some time, on this stuff. And they're wrong, wrong, and wrong. I do wish that when somebody, somewhere, lies and says that people will be Rule Zeroed here for disagreeing with me, they'd look at that for a moment and not lie so much.

It'd be a nice change.

Yes, I'm grumpy on that subject.

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:44 am 
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I feel like we have returned to this thread:

http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/vi ... ight=aacfi


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:52 am 
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I don't, but I see your point. That discussion was about whether or not a given activity -- shooting pellet guns in a hotel room -- technically met the "actual shooting qualification exercise" requirement of the MCPPA.

This discussion is about two things:

1. What a good qualification exercise might be.

2. Whether or not an instructor who insists on that, in his class, the utter minimum prescribed by law isn't where everything stops and the certificate gets signed is Doing Mean Stuff.

I think we're spending a lot of time on #2, but, hey, whatever floats the boat, and all. . . .

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 11:30 am 
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Sorry to make you grumpy, Joel. Certainly not my intention.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

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