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 Carry at the State Fair? 
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 Post subject: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:41 pm
Posts: 72
Location: Hastings
This was asked on another forum and this will be my first fair year with a permit. I couldn't find anything on the State Fair website related to carry policy. A Yahoo search revealed this old post from shortly after the CCW law was passed:
"With many new permit to carry holders out there and with the illegal actions of municipal and county governments (including the governmental organization responsible for the State Fair) CCRN’s President, Joe Olson, has prepared the following regarding the posting at the Minnesota State Fair.

When carrying at the fair, you may also want to carry this e-mail and the following phone number should you be illegally challenged, detained or ejected from the fairgrounds. CCRN is interested in any permit holder illegally challenged, detained or ejected for carrying while on the state fairgrounds for the purposes of litigation against State Fair Management.

Tim Grant – 612-869-2799

CCRN believes the law is clear. The State Fair's so-called "gun ban" is invalid as to holders of carry permits.

OUR POSITION
Like other "governmental units" the Minnesota Agricultural Society (which operates the State Fair) has no authority to ban the possession or carry of pistols by those who hold carry permits. Carry permit holders are responsible (they have passed criminal, mental, and chemical dependency background checks), competent (they have passed a DPS validated training course), adults (age 21) who are proven good citizens.

The signs posted at the Fairgrounds may be, however, effective against criminals (who are unlikely to comply) and non permit holders (who are unlikely to care).

WHAT THE LAW PROVIDES
The Agricultural Society is a governmental unit of the state (Minn. Stat. sec. 37.14). It has authority to adopt ordinances and rules for the Fairgrounds (violation of which is a misdemeanor) but only those which are "consistent with law." (Minn. Stat. sec. 37.16)

Carry permits and their exercise are governed solely by Minn. Stat. sec. 624.714 (enacted in April 2003). That law says, in part:

Subd. 2. Scope. A permit to carry a pistol ... is a state permit and is effective throughout the state.

Subd. 23. Exclusivity. * * * No sheriff, police chief, governmental unit, government official, government employee, or other person or body acting under color of law or governmental authority may change, modify, or supplement these criteria or procedures, or limit the exercise of a permit to carry.

By it's rule and signs, the Agricultural Society is attempting to "limit the exercise of a permit to carry." This it has no lawful power to accomplish.

Tim Grant



And another perspective from the field:

I read your section on Carry at the State Fair. I am a retired Duluth police
officer and have worked as part-time Minnesota State Fair police officer. I
only worked during the Minnesota State Fair, a.k.a the Great Minnesota Get
Together. I became very disturbed with the position you posted on this matter.
During the fair the state fairgrounds becomes a business, you pay to get in,
thus the Ag. Society reserves the right to restrict gun permit holders in their
place of business. The Minnesota State Fair police are instructed to remove
any violators without a big scene being created for the CCRN.

I am a LIFE Member NRA and certified by the State of Minnesota to Instruct
Concealed Carry. I do not advocate to my students that they have the right to
enter the Minnesota State Fair grounds during the fair with a concealed
handgun. During paid events the fairgrounds are every much a business, and a
big business at that, as the Miller Hill Mall. During non-paid events to enter
you can carry on the property. The position you list encourages permit holders
to trespass during paid events. It only serves to undermine the idea that
permit holders are law abiding. It would be foolish to challenge the law in
this manner. I quit the CCRN over their position on this matter."

Anyone know what the current posting status is at the State Fair and if anyone ever challenged the posting?

_________________
M&P40c in a Supertuck and Kel-Tec PF9 in Don Hume pocket holster.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:54 pm 
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You nailed the two view points. One is that the MN ST Fair is governement run and the other that it is not. You have to decide which view you will take. I think I am on pretty firm ground when I say most of us believe, as it is very clear, that the State Fair is owned by a governmental agency, thus, their postings are not lawful. You can choose to be a test case if you wish and open carry, get kicked out and then sue. It boils down to how much justice can you afford. The reality is concealed means concealed until such a time that the matter is brought before a judge and cleared up...theorectically at least.

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Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:04 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:28 pm
Posts: 2362
Location: Uptown Minneapolis
This retired Duluth police officer is mistaken.

Carrying on the fairgrounds, concealed or openly, during the Fair is entirely lawful, and does not constitute a "foolish challenge to the law".

However, it IS a "foolish challenge" to the FAIR!

This is one organization that we should be loathe to oppose, and seek methods other than confrontation to modify the policy of.

Who do you think has the greater clout in the Lege, a few thousand middle age guys like us? Or the stinkin' STATE FAIR? The Fair doesn't ask for a whole lot, but if it asks the Lege to move to abrogate our rights to carry, the Lege will sit up and bark. We would likely lose in the court of public opinion, as well.

Our best moves here are not confrontation, but instead education, quiet politics, and soft-sell pressure tactics. We must be more circumspect here than with almost any other issue.

Patience. And in the meantime, "concealed means concealed".

_________________
"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." - Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960

"Man has the right to deal with his oppressors by devouring their palpitating hearts." - Jean-Paul Marat


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:21 am 
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Moby Clarke wrote:
You nailed the two view points. One is that the MN ST Fair is governement run and the other that it is not. You have to decide which view you will take. I think I am on pretty firm ground when I say most of us believe, as it is very clear, that the State Fair is owned by a governmental agency, thus, their postings are not lawful. You can choose to be a test case if you wish and open carry, get kicked out and then sue. It boils down to how much justice can you afford. The reality is concealed means concealed until such a time that the matter is brought before a judge and cleared up...theorectically at least.


Or the legislature decides to change the law to allow the state fair an exemption and lets them post.

This isn't one we're going to win anytime soon, folks. There's lawful, and then there's how the media will spin it. Media influences public, public and or fair board calls / writes legislature...yeah, that's not going to end well.

That said, the retired Duluth officer is flat out wrong. Wonder what certifying organization he's under... He's likely feeding other bullshit to his students.

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:23 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:48 am
Posts: 232
I do believe members in the past have open carried and not had a problem, I don't actually think I've been to the fair since I've had my permit, if we choose to go I'll be concealed and as usual wouldn't expect and issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:28 am 
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I go once a year, with a lot of family. I conceal.

Were it just me, I wouldn't care. They can't arrest me (well, they could, and I'd leave the officer a cardboard box to live in when the lawsuits were done), so activism here I come...

But I don't need to ruin my family's time there with police interaction. My wife puts up with a lot. I'll give her that day off from being married to an activist and let her just be married to her husband...who is carrying concealed. 8)

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:05 am 
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mrokern wrote:
I go once a year, with a lot of family. I conceal.

Yep, what he said.

Never had a problem, but then the key part of that is conceal.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:20 pm 
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Obey their rules, Just like the Mall Of America.
Conceal or leave your gun at home. It might fall out during a ride! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:57 am 
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Posts: 364
Location: Minneapolis, MN
I used to feel strongly about "posting activism." But now, I just see the sign, smile knowing I'm carrying and there is nothing they can do about it - 'cause they don't know - and go about my business.

Of course, I prefer to avoid posted properties as much as possible, but sometimes it can't be helped.

Kimberman - and others - have pointed out, we have a "pretty good" posting requirement law. If we raise too much of a stink, we could wind up going against the business community, resulting in a stronger posting law. In other states, you can be arrested just for walking past the sign while carrying - and the sign can be any size, posted anywhere.

Here in Minnesota, we're much better off. I suggest we keep it that way, and work towards changes in the law which will do real good - such as interstate reciprocity and castle doctrine.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:01 am 
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JimC wrote:
Obey their rules, Just like the Mall Of America.
Conceal or leave your gun at home. It might fall out during a ride! :D


Now there's a funny thought... :lol:

"Please empty your pockets of anything you don't want to fall out of them..."

"GULP"

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:04 am 
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Location: Minneapolis MN
An idiot wrote:

And another perspective from the field:

I read your section on Carry at the State Fair. I am a retired Duluth police
officer and have worked as part-time Minnesota State Fair police officer. I
only worked during the Minnesota State Fair, a.k.a the Great Minnesota Get
Together. I became very disturbed with the position you posted on this matter.
During the fair the state fairgrounds becomes a business, you pay to get in,
thus the Ag. Society reserves the right to restrict gun permit holders in their
place of business. The Minnesota State Fair police are instructed to remove
any violators without a big scene being created for the CCRN.

I am a LIFE Member NRA and certified by the State of Minnesota to Instruct
Concealed Carry. I do not advocate to my students that they have the right to
enter the Minnesota State Fair grounds during the fair with a concealed
handgun. During paid events the fairgrounds are every much a business, and a
big business at that, as the Miller Hill Mall. During non-paid events to enter
you can carry on the property. The position you list encourages permit holders
to trespass during paid events. It only serves to undermine the idea that
permit holders are law abiding. It would be foolish to challenge the law in
this manner. I quit the CCRN over their position on this matter."

I particularly like the part where he admits that the State Fair cops -- as a former senior fellow in that agency used to say: "the wannabes, the has-beens, and the never-wases" -- are prepared to violate the law, but figure that if they do it quietly, they'll get away with it.

Yeah, I don't think that open carry at the fair would be a good idea -- but this sort of ignorant arrogance really pisses me off.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:34 pm 
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joelr wrote:
I particularly like the part where he admits that the State Fair cops -- as a former senior fellow in that agency used to say: "the wannabes, the has-beens, and the never-wases" -- are prepared to violate the law, but figure that if they do it quietly, they'll get away with it.

Yeah, I don't think that open carry at the fair would be a good idea -- but this sort of ignorant arrogance really pisses me off.


I have a story about "ignorant arrogance", committed by one of those "the wannabes, the has-beens, and the never-wases", but it doesn't relate to carry. Still, I'll tell it soon.

_________________
"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." - Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960

"Man has the right to deal with his oppressors by devouring their palpitating hearts." - Jean-Paul Marat


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:42 pm 
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Location: Burnsville
i was googling the fair and found this 2003 article from NPR Gun advocates question State Fair's gun ban
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/f ... efairguns/

Quote:
Gross says it's not even a gray area -- that the law explicitly states public places, like the fair, have no authority to ban guns.

"The property is owned by the state of Minnesota. The statute says no sheriff, police chief, governmental unit, governmental official, government employee or other person or body, acting under color of law or governmental authority, may limit the exercise of a permit to carry. And they're trying to limit the exercise of a permit to carry," Gross says.

State Fair attorney Kent Harbison says the fair's no-gun policy is nothing new -- for decades, the fair has banned weapons out of public safety concerns.

He says fair staff posted signs about the ban this year because of all of the attention surrounding Minnesota's new law.

Harbison says fair staff has every intention of enforcing the ban, and that the administration feels "fairly confident that its position is long-standing, and makes a lot of sense."


it's been a few years but

Quote:
David Gross from the gun rights group says if officials attempt to remove someone from the fairgrounds who's legally carrying a handgun, that person will have a strong civil rights claim against the State Fair. And Gross says it would be a claim he'd be happy to litigate.

"If an individual who is subject to enforcement comes to me, you can take it to the bank. OK? It would be the same thing as if an African American went to polling place and they said, 'Well, you've got a right to vote, but not here,'" says Gross.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:28 pm 
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David is a member around these parts. I don't know if I'd want to be the one to challenge this (he's not cheap), but watching him work in a courtroom is supposed to be sheer magic.

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:14 pm 
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Wonder if he'd take the case on contingency?

_________________
"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." - Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960

"Man has the right to deal with his oppressors by devouring their palpitating hearts." - Jean-Paul Marat


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