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 Carry at the State Fair? 
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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:06 am 
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G129 wrote:
Additionally if you use your weapon at the fair I would think your chances of hitting an innocent would be substantial with the crowds I see. Maybe that is why the fair decided to ban guns?

See: Mayor of Milwaukee re: Wisconsin State Fair

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:14 am 
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It was stated: "Unfortunately state fair policy is to not allow weapons on the grounds, and we have to enforce that. "

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I believe the excuse that "we were just following orders" has not worked well in the past, and will not work well now. What you have to do is enforce the law. As it is written. Not as you or any other person or agency thinks it should be written.

I mean no disrespect to the original poster. None. I applaud and appreciate good honest officers. I am not "anti-police" by any stretch of anyone's imagination. But... (there is that damned "but")...it is getting disheartening to hear of so many...so many...officers on their own tanget and not following the written law. The WI AG has it right when he has so clearly indicated that the mere fact of someone doing something legal (open carry) is not grounds to detain, arrest, harass etc. any permit holder. I have -0- issue with the officer inquiring "do you have a permit to carry?" Not an issue with me. If the answer is "yes", then simply say "have a nice day" and don't start to try to enforce a policy that violates the rights of the permit holder.

Maybe I am just crabby today.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:36 am 
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G129 wrote:
when a citizen makes a complaint and it is aired on the radio we have to follow up on it.

I EXPECT officers to respond to man with a gun calls. I WISH the fair would get their laws straight and not attempt to enforce clearly illegal policies.

Response to original complainant: If he has a valid permit, it's perfectly legal.; If it's not being handled, it's not an issue.
Request of permit holder: Sir, may I see your permit? Thank you sir, have a good day.

G129 wrote:
why open carry at the fair? [...] if you use your weapon at the fair I would think your chances of hitting an innocent would be substantial with the crowds I see. Maybe that is why the fair decided to ban guns?

Activism is another possibility of OC at the fair though I don't think the climate is right for it. but then, I would never have dreamed of the NH and AZ protests going over so well.

I think as a standard practice, OC at the fair is a terrible idea. If it's to be done it should be done with a lot of preparation and thought. There are too many people packed too close and the risk of a gun grab is there. Add that to the backstop issue and it's frightening.

I come down on the side of personal responsibility and following the law though. Look at the crime stats for permit holders available from the BCA. Compare it to the population as a whole. Permit holders are LAW ABIDING citizens. MUCH (by many multiples of probability) less likely to commit ANY crime.

When crime happens, though no fault of your own, seconds count and police are often minutes away. With the size of the crowds, even with the police presence, it's going to take time for you to get to me anywhere inside the fair unless you happen to be right there. My personal issue isn't just inside the fair or most any other posted place. it's transit to and from as well. Think about police and crowd concentration inside the fair compared to outside the fair and the traffic ... a mugging 4 blocks outside the fair is going to be over and done before the police hear about it or respond.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:38 am 
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phorvick wrote:
I mean no disrespect to the original poster. None. I applaud and appreciate good honest officers. I am not "anti-police" by any stretch of anyone's imagination. But... (there is that damned "but")...it is getting disheartening to hear of so many...so many...officers on their own tanget and not following the written law.


VERY well said

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:20 am 
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G129 wrote:
I am not a lawyer, and am not an expert on concealed carry law.


With all respect, it is your job to know the law that you think you are enforcing.

I understand that you're not a lawyer. Mess this one up, though, and you will need a lawyer. See 42 USC 1983.

That's free advice, worth at least as much as you paid for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:35 am 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
G129 wrote:
I am not a lawyer, and am not an expert on concealed carry law.


With all respect, it is your job to know the law that you think you are enforcing.

I understand that you're not a lawyer. Mess this one up, though, and you will need a lawyer. See 42 USC 1983.

That's free advice, worth at least as much as you paid for it.


I expect to be sued for whatever I do. Unfortunately that’s just the reality of today’s world. As far as being an expert on concealed carry law, I think even lawyers would admit that they are not experts on all the laws out there.

I think that I failed to illustrate that I am on the carry side. Like I said, I am a gun enthusiast. I even own NFA. I argued the concealed carry point at the fair and even pointed out that not all of the entrances are signed. I have been told the fair grounds are private property during the fair (I expect many of you will argue otherwise) and the fair policy is no weapons allowed. I am sure the fair’s team of powerhouse lawyers put some thought into this.

The back of the employee tickets even have the firearm policy printed. I do not recall the exact wording, but it stated that only ON DUTY licensed police officers may carry a weapon on fair grounds, and that having a carry permit does not negate this rule.

I hope you guys challenge this and change the policy.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:49 am 
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DeanC wrote:
I bought my Fair tickets with quarters so they couldn't track me by my credit card or the magnetic strip embedded in the dollar bills.


Look at the side of your quarters. See the colored stripe in the middle? That's the RFID tracking you.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:54 am 
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How can the fairgrounds become private property for two weeks a year and then State property the rest of the year? Does the Fair board pay the property taxes for the period that it is private property? As private property, are they allowed to have a police force? Maybe they should just hire private security. According to their web site, the Fair board is a "quasi- state agency". I read that as they are not state funded but still state owned. Am I misreading something here?

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:00 am 
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G129 wrote:
I think that I failed to illustrate that I am on the carry side...
Well, I can't speak for others, but I got that, honest. We just disagree on some stuff. I've been disagreed with before, and it hasn't killed me, yet.

It's perfectly possible -- I hope -- to, say, be pro-carry and think that the State Fair is a pretty lousy place to choose to open carry. (Since -- and I'm not talking about officious officials and their employees; that's a side issue -- that's exactly my position, I would hope so. Wouldn't want folks to think that I'm anti-carry.)
Quote:

I hope you guys challenge this and change the policy.
At some point, alas, I think we may have to. From my POV, it largely depends on the State Fair folks -- as long as all that they're doing, in practice, is interfering with open carry at the Fair, I've got more important battles to fight.

It wouldn't be all that hard to set up a sting; the issue is, "what do you do after the sting?" Figure five figures, each, to:

1. fight the $25 ticket (or bogus misdemeanor trespass beef) through the appeals process.

2. ditto the MN civil case, and

3. ditto the Federal Civil Rights action.

(People with law degrees in particular are invited to tell me I'm wrong on any of those numbered points, above.)

And then, after that, we'd have to deal with the problem of the Ag Society having a lot of juice at the lege, and have to fight an unfriendly modification to 624.714. I don't think there's a lot of doubt that we'd win, but it would get ugly.

That said, if this does need to be done, starting the ball rolling during an off-year election is probably the right timing, and if the folks at opencarry.org (or similar organizations) insist on pushing open carry at the Fair, they should probably be passing the hat about now. If they decide to pick another fight, instead, they can find good use for around $100K, I'm sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:05 am 
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G129 wrote:
[As far as being an expert on concealed carry law, I think even lawyers would admit that they are not experts on all the laws out there.
Sure. Then again, hereabouts on the Forum we have the two top experts on the planet on Minn. Stat. 624.714 -- it's not a secret that "Kimberman" is Professor Olson, or that "David Gross" is David Gross. These are, after all, the guys who drafted almost all of the law.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:26 am 
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G129 wrote:
I have been told the fair grounds are private property during the fair .


I'd love to see the logic they used to decide that. A government agency renting government land from the government makes the land private?

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:30 pm 
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G129 wrote:
I am sure the fair’s team of powerhouse lawyers put some thought into this.

You might think that, but witness Hennepin County and City of Minneapolis signage issues. They can't even follow the most basic instructions for constructing a compliant sign, not to mention the clearly specious reasoning they use to disregard the law on posting.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:41 pm 
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Plblark, right on.
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My personal issue isn't just inside the fair or most any other posted place. it's transit to and from as well. Think about police and crowd concentration inside the fair compared to outside the fair and the traffic ... a mugging 4 blocks outside the fair is going to be over and done before the police hear about it or respond.
Using park and rides, attending with old folks (my parents one trip, wife's parents the other) my pregnant wife and our barely a toddler . . . my option to run from trouble is extremely limited. I also can't leave my gun locked in the car, having taken a bus and all.

This last time, being parked way out in the Uof M park&ride lot I got to thinking about what a great hunting ground that would be for a thug. You know people have been walking around getting tired all day, you know they have spent the day being conditioned to having people inside their comfort zones, you know the people working the park and ride parking lot have seen people come and go all day long and won't take any notice of your get away car/ lic plate/ etc. to them you'd just be one of hundreds of cars (just remember to toss the victim's keys or take them with you, so you leave before they can get to the exit) leaving around then, say 10:00pm. Couldn't make it better shopping for a thug.

I know I am not expecting to use my gun for self defense inside the Fair, where cop density is outlandishly high, the crowds thick enough to hinder a thug, and "hue and cry" has a high probability of getting enough eyes, camera phones and video cameras on a thug that going through with a crime would be beyond insane. My gun is safest when I fiddle with it the least. I put it on once and take it off once, both in the comfort and privacy of my home. Even if the State Fair provided lock boxes for private citizens (and an officer to make sure the whole lock box setup didn't get loaded on a truck) it would require me to handle my weapon two more times & undoubtedly ther'd be some requirement to clear the weapon adding unholster, unload, reload, reholster to the opportunities for something to go wrong. All of this is a long winded way of saying: Not only is the State Fair's policiy nullified by state law, it wouldn't make sense even if it were legal.

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The back of the employee tickets even have the firearm policy printed. I do not recall the exact wording, but it stated that only ON DUTY licensed police officers may carry a weapon on fair grounds, and that having a carry permit does not negate this rule.
Seems like that would also be a LEOSA violation. Maybe we need to get a cop to be our test case.
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However, there are two types of state laws that are not overridden by the federal law, these being "the laws of any State that (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or (2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park." This does not mean that LEOSA-qualified persons are prohibited from carrying concealed firearms in such areas, but only that they must obey whatever state laws apply on those two points. They are free to disregard all other state and local laws that govern the carrying of concealed firearms.
from the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforc ... Safety_Act :D Since an off duty officer or a retired officer covered by LEOSA can carry regardless of their state of origin (say Uncle Joe the retired deputy from MO comes up to the MN State Fair, packing under LEOSA or his MO carry permit) it is Federal law that he can carry at the Fair, or it is MN state law says that MN has reciprocity with his carry permit so he is covered by MN624.714 which has that neat Subd. 23 in it & all that stands against a State Fair rule, which is niether law nor would it be legal if it were. Now we just need to find an Uncle Joe in MO. Of course a local officer would be covered under LEOSA as well . . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:58 pm 
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Macx wrote:

Quote:
The back of the employee tickets even have the firearm policy printed. I do not recall the exact wording, but it stated that only ON DUTY licensed police officers may carry a weapon on fair grounds, and that having a carry permit does not negate this rule.
Seems like that would also be a LEOSA violation.
I don't think so. I think that the Fair does have the right -- as does any other government (or private) employer to regulate what their employees do . . . other than, of course, in the parking lots.

If they want to dismiss one of the Fair cops for carrying his gun, while offduty, to and from the Fair police station -- when they arrive for duty or when they leave -- that's okay. Stupid, but okay.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:40 pm 
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I read this thread a week or so before I went to the fair. I chose to carry concealed into the fair, when I went on the first day (along with about 100k other people). As one other post said, I am not worried about inside the event as it is wall to wall people, but maybe something happening on the way back to my car. I also had all my kids with me and I will not let anything happen to them.

My point in this reply is that I looked and looked for "no gun/weapon" signs. I saw nothing. Plus, there was no place checking for anything I was wearing or bringing in (unlike the Metrodome). I went in the front gate (on Snelling). Did they change the rule or wake up and realize their unenforceable signage?


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