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 Carry at the State Fair? 
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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:22 am 
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JimC wrote:
Maybe our group here should get a booth at the fair, Promote carrying, getting a permit etc. Good business for Instructors & lawyers


I would be in for that in 2010

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:56 am 
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I can confirm there were signs at both ends of the parking entrance.
One was on a fence to the right, the other one I saw as we left through the entrance near the U Vet School.
Same one as pictured.
Based on the condition, they appear to be fairly new or at least put up only recently (They were nice and white).


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:26 pm 
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JimC wrote:
Maybe our group here should get a booth at the fair, Promote carrying, getting a permit etc. Good business for Instructors & lawyers


My wife has worked for the fair in administration for eight years and knows pretty much everyone. I can tell you that it is quite difficult to get any real estate at the fair and it is very discretionary. However, if the organizers of this are serious, I would be happy to reach out to my connections. I would think reaching out to the NRA (yes, I know) might not be a bad idea either. That's what they are there for after all.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:34 pm 
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I Carried at the fair. The group I was with, 3 of the 4 of us had permits, though I was the only one that Carried. Not all of us here will Admit to Carring at the fair, for fear of getting on a "List", so next year, how about a vote/census at the top of the Thread, "I carried / I didn't carry but could have" and maybe let people vote each day they were there. It would be fun to see numbers.

DE KA0OLD

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:54 pm 
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KA0OLD wrote:
Not all of us here will Admit to Carring at the fair, for fear of getting on a "List".

Well I would assume, as many here, if there is a list, we are already on the "List". So I guess my question is, what list? The list they check when we buy the tickets, the list they check when we pass through the gate?

I have heard such thing is the past, but if they fear being on a list, since they have a Minnesota permit to carry and such a list exist, don't you think they are already on it?


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:56 pm 
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I bought my Fair tickets with quarters so they couldn't track me by my credit card or the magnetic strip embedded in the dollar bills.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:27 pm 
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I think I was in the booth at the same time you were. I was there with my wife and little girl when that clown ran up and showed his intelligent side. I saw a couple of people try to engage him in conversation, but he just ran back off into the crowd. I wonder if he even had a thought that there were at least two of us standing in the booth who were armed at the time. I bet he would have been a little more polite had he known.

Personally, I wanted to go stand at the Al Franken booth and just annoy the crap out of them with question after question about what Al has done to deserve any support from me, but my wife wouldn't let me. She's such a party-pooper sometimes. I thought it would have been very educational for my 7 year old. :D

In my experience, I didn't see any signs at the two gates I went in. I went with the untucked, Hawaiian-style shirt over an OWB holster with my SIG and had no problem on the Tilt-A-Whirl or the Crazy Mouse roller coaster. A good time was had by all, and we all came home stuffed full.

Macx wrote:
Second trip to the Fair went as well as the first. We used the park and ride from the UofM and this time I didn't see signs. Tucked T-shirt and no issues, though while we were near the Republican booth a guy (and I think it was the same one that showed up at the Carry Picnic) came out of the crowd to holler "liars" at the Republican booth and get mocked for a second or two before he melted back into the crowd. Certainly not an issue but it did underscore for me how quickly a hit and run hoodlum can disappear in a crowd. I spotted alot more plain clothes officers this go round, and a lot more photographer's vests and fanny packs with the pull cord thingys as well. I only saw one other person with the tale tell loops of a tuckable IWB, but that made me feel quite a bit better about how I was carrying as I only spotted his because I was actively looking and his belt didn't match the loops very well.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:38 pm 
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cobb wrote:
KA0OLD wrote:
Not all of us here will Admit to Carring at the fair, for fear of getting on a "List".

Well I would assume, as many here, if there is a list, we are already on the "List". So I guess my question is, what list? The list they check when we buy the tickets, the list they check when we pass through the gate?

I have heard such thing is the past, but if they fear being on a list, since they have a Minnesota permit to carry and such a list exist, don't you think they are already on it?


It's ok. I have a list, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:14 am 
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Quote:
I think I was in the booth at the same time you were. I was there with my wife and little girl when that clown ran up and showed his intelligent side. I saw a couple of people try to engage him in conversation, but he just ran back off into the crowd. I wonder if he even had a thought that there were at least two of us standing in the booth who were armed at the time. I bet he would have been a little more polite had he known.


Right on! I heard someone yell "get lost" at him . . . I was the one who hollered "he already is lost" :lol: Silly I know.

My wife, her parents and my little girl were trailing and stayed outside the booth, my wife is a crazy liberal type and her parents are from Chicago :roll: but I'd gone in and was almost back to them when that :cry:-sack did his bit of drama.

I'd say what is the point, but we just had a Republican Senator do the same thing at Obama's latest speech. What a strange world this is turning into!

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:07 am 
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Greetings,
I found this forum while searching for public perspective on concealed carry at the fair. I am a patrol deputy in a SE MN county and work at the fair every year (most of the officers at the fair come from other departments). I have been working the fair for six years and never had a weapons call until this year.

I would like to give an inside perspective. I worked the evening shift this year and had several calls regarding permit holders. All were open carrying, causing citizens to find an officer to express their concern of a “man with a gun.” One of the persons had been consuming alcohol. One had the concealed carry badge and extra magazine pouch on his belt. All were requested to leave and allowed back in if they wanted to leave the weapon in their vehicle. State Fair officers are not directed to look for people carrying. We do not stop and question fanny packs, 5.11 pants, or bulges in the shirt. However, when a citizen makes a complaint and it is aired on the radio we have to follow up on it.

I, like most officers, am a gun enthusiast and support concealed carry. We are not here to take your guns and arrest you at the fair. Unfortunately state fair policy is to not allow weapons on the grounds, and we have to enforce that.

I would also like to defend the State Fair Police Department since their reputation has been attacked. They are a professional force with outstanding officers. Many of them are full time with other departments, and they wear the State Fair uniform because their home departments will not allow them to work the fair in their home uniform. Many others are retired from departments and work the fair to keep their police license active. Those officers are the best to work with because of their experience and knowledge.

Finally I would like to defend the “Officer from Duluth.” I work with him at the fair every year and can confirm that he is a permit trainer. He is 100% pro concealed carry and 2nd amendment, a very experience police officer, and is knowledgeable on the carry laws. Perhaps his opinion comes from his perspective as a fair officer?

In conclusion I would ask why open carry at the fair? Maybe for attention, or an attempt to challenge fair policy? Obviously you have quicker access to your weapon, but I would think the surprise factor of having the concealed weapon would negate the speed factor. If you carry concealed at the fair my OPINION if you have nothing to worry about because we wont know to ask you to leave. Additionally if you use your weapon at the fair I would think your chances of hitting an innocent would be substantial with the crowds I see. Maybe that is why the fair decided to ban guns?


Last edited by G129 on Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:15 am 
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G129, I wonder why you are so comfortable with enforcing an illegal policy.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:32 am 
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I am not a lawyer, and am not an expert on concealed carry law. I just do what I am told. If I refused I would not be allowed to work at the fair, and I enjoy doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:48 am 
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G129 wrote:
Greetings,
I found this forum while searching for public perspective on concealed carry at the fair. I am a patrol deputy in a SE MN county and work at the fair every year (most of the officers at the fair come from other departments). I have been working the fair for six years and never had a weapons call until this year.
Hi there. Thanks for showiing up with a different perspective.
Quote:

I would like to give an inside perspective. I worked the evening shift this year and had several calls regarding permit holders. All were open carrying, causing citizens to find an officer to express their concern of a “man with a gun.” One of the persons had been consuming alcohol.
Well, I wasn't openly carrying, but I did have a small beer this year, as I've been known to do. If you guys had PC to think that he or she might have been over the .BAC limit, and you had him/her blow into the breathalyzier -- and then charged him/her with CWI if he/she flunked -- I'd have no objection.
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One had the concealed carry badge and extra magazine pouch on his belt.
Extra mag? Not a problem; folks who carry a semiauto probably ought to. The "concealed carry badge" on the belt is the sign of a moron . . . but, if being an idiot was a crime in and of itself, we'd need a lot more jails.
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All were requested to leave and allowed back in if they wanted to leave the weapon in their vehicle. State Fair officers are not directed to look for people carrying. We do not stop and question fanny packs, 9.11 pants, or bulges in the shirt. However, when a citizen makes a complaint and it is aired on the radio we have to follow up on it.
Oh, sure, as long as you think that there's enough of a possibility that the complaint is worth your time. Drunk guy with a gun? Absolutely; hook him up, and I hope my applause won't hurt your eardrums.
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I, like most officers, am a gun enthusiast and support concealed carry. We are not here to take your guns and arrest you at the fair. Unfortunately state fair policy is to not allow weapons on the grounds, and we have to enforce that.
Err... no, you don't. I've got some sympathy for your position, honest. You've been told by your command structure to enforce the policy of the Ag Society, a government agency. But 624.714 isn't ambiguous; the bolding is mine:
Quote:
Subd. 23.Exclusivity. This section sets forth the complete and exclusive criteria and procedures for the issuance of permits to carry and establishes their nature and scope. No sheriff, police chief, governmental unit, government official, government employee, or other person or body acting under color of law or governmental authority may change, modify, or supplement these criteria or procedures, or limit the exercise of a permit to carry.
It doesn't say, "no person, unless he's been told by the head of the State Fair police force, may limit the exercise of a permit to carry." It's pretty clear.
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I would also like to defend the State Fair Police Department since their reputation has been attacked. They are a professional force with outstanding officers. Many of them are full time with other departments, and they wear the State Fair uniform because their home departments will not allow them to work the fair in their home uniform. Many others are retired from departments and work the fair to keep their police license active. Those officers are the best to work with because of their experience and knowledge.
The phrase you may be referring to about the State Fair cops -- "the wannabes, the has-beens, and the never-wases" -- isn't mine; it's a former police chief's. I'm pretty sure that you know who he is.

As to the whole PD being great, this is going to be a tough crowd to sell on that, given that we know that the head of the Fair cops is the former underboss of the Strike Force, and they haven't exactly covered their badges with glory. I've got a lot of questions about a lot of badged guys at the Fair -- and, to be fair, not because of anything I've seen there, as in most ways the Fair seems to be a good illustration of the Peelian Principles.

But I digress.
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Finally I would like to defend the “Officer from Duluth.” I work with him at the fair every year and can confirm that he is a permit trainer. He is 100% pro concealed carry and 2nd amendment, a very experience police officer, and is knowledgeable on the carry laws. Perhaps his opinion comes from his perspective as a fair officer?
I'm afraid that might be so -- he's oozing the belief that what he thinks the law ought to be trumps the law as it is. Not good.
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In conclusion I would ask why open carry at the fair? Maybe for attention, or an attempt to challenge fair policy?
Oh, I think there's a real possibility that some poor badged guy is going to get himself sued over enforcing an unlawful policy -- and it probably won't be somebody with a union contract where his home department is required to spend taxpayer money defending him, no matter what.

I think people carry openly for lots of reasons, some good, some silly. I regularly do that only a few places -- when I'm doing HR218 training for retired cops, I do it mostly at a local PD, and when I walk in there I don't want some cop who doesn't know me to spot a bulge and start worrying about it, so I just carry openly.

But while it's not my thing, there are some good reasons why folks might want to, and if you're interested in that subject, I'll just point you at the nice folks at http://opencarry.org, and "A right not exercised is a right lost."
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Obviously you have quicker access to your weapon, but I would think the surprise factor of having the concealed weapon would negate the speed factor.
Well, me, too -- I think open carry for the benefit of the supposedly faster draw is silly, given that most folks can draw more quickly out of a pocket holster, anyway, given that they get to start things by having a shooting grip on the gun before they have to commit to anything.
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If you carry concealed at the fair my OPINION if you have nothing to worry about because we wont know to ask you to leave.
And, in fact, in many cases some of the cops will know about some folks carrying, and won't ask them to leave, for fear of exactly the sort of thing that your friend pointed out. Yes, it could end up being a test case, and particularly if you're enforcing a policy that's in clear and unambiguous violation of Minn. Stat. 624.714, looking too closely is probably unwise, and it's probably better just to affect to not see.

(Despite my own criticisms, I wouldn't want people to think that I think that cops who work the Fair are utter idiots -- if you see a guy, on a very hot day, wearing tac pants, a 511 cap, and a Hawaaian shirt over a t-shirt, you don't need to see a neon sign held over him, flashing Permit Holder Carrying to know that that's just what I am, err, make that "just what he is.")

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Additionally if you use your weapon at the fair I would think your chances of hitting an innocent would be substantial with the crowds I see.
Wouldn't that depend on the situation? In some hyptheticals, sure; in others, nah.
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Maybe that is why the fair decided to ban guns?
But, of course, they didn't, and they can't -- there's lots of guys walking around the fair, open carrying -- and at least many of them carry in a more restricted way than guys like me: they -- you -- carry as both a privilege and a condition of employment.

Me, I carry as a matter of exercising a fundamental human right. That's not just my opinion; it's a matter of law.

So, again: welcome aboard. Hope you hang around.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:02 am 
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G129 wrote:
If you carry concealed at the fair my OPINION if you have nothing to worry about because we wont know to ask you to leave.

Hi, and welcome!...
But... the thing I really don't want is OPINIONs interfering with what is legally permissible, and quite frankly, some cops are quite a bit more opinionated than others, and bring their dubious interpretations of the law to work, either full time or part time. As a cop, (any cop) it is your duty to know the law, when/where you can, and cannot restrict carry, and under what circumstances.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry at the State Fair?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:04 am 
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G129 wrote:
I am not a lawyer, and am not an expert on concealed carry law. I just do what I am told. If I refused I would not be allowed to work at the fair, and I enjoy doing it.

Understood. And, while I think you're very clearly knowingly acting ultra vires under color of authority, the de facto State Fair policy -- "we'll roust you, just a little, if you carry openly, but as long as you wear some sort of covering garment, we'll pretend we don't notice that you're carrying" -- isn't something I particularly want to start raising money to hire a lawyer (what with the ubiquity of cell phone cameras and some other tech we're not going to discuss here, that part of it is cheap and easy) and fight in court, as there's bigger fish to fry.

As Bad Cop Stuff goes, this is really small change, and I'd really hate to go to Professor Olson and try to make the case that we really do need to fight this battle, now, as I think it would be a Pyrrhic victory, and an expensive one.

But I'm openminded, and I'm hardly the only one who could say, you know, maybe this is one worth doing, after all.

And the frontal attack -- the court challenge -- is hardly the only possible lawful one. But, like I said, this is small change, and there's more important stuff going on.

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