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 Regarding Open Carry in MN 
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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:53 pm 
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Andrew,

That may very well be, but I will be having ongoing conversation with him to help him understand it. I think he is a very good officer and there is no need to go beyond what I will do. I understand that they need to understand that it is legal to carry in that manner and I am choosing to hand off this information to him.


Thank you for the replies. If he asks another question regarding the issue I will be posting again.


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:00 pm 
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72_chev_truck wrote:
Andrew,

That may very well be, but I will be having ongoing conversation with him to help him understand it. I think he is a very good officer and there is no need to go beyond what I will do. I understand that they need to understand that it is legal to carry in that manner and I am choosing to hand off this information to him.


Thank you for the replies. If he asks another question regarding the issue I will be posting again.


Andrew's point is that a friend-to-friend reminder that under the American legal system, "what is not prohibited is allowed" would be in order. Too many people think that laws ALLOW Americans to do things. They do not.

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:07 pm 
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whoops, I misread Andrews post. I get it now


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:05 pm 
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I would like to say that I made a mistake in posting this thread. Had I known that simply listing the word officer would cause such a ruckus I would have never posted. I also made the mistake of mentioning he thought it illegal to open carry. Due to my being tired, I decided to send him the thread. I will willingly take the shit storm that I myself created.

I am disappointed in the open hatred and name calling towards the officers that make our communities safer.


My friend is a tremendous officer and I think you all need to know this. He puts his vest and uniform on every day not knowing if he will make it home. I certainly am not man enough to take on the responsibility that he does. He makes the community he lives in, safer for all those living there. He is courageous and we should all be thankful for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:16 pm 
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Please point out the open hatred towards officer in this thread or anywhere on this board.

You'll have difficulty because that is extremely rare and generally not tolerated. In fact quite a few of the people posting on this board are LEOs themselves. And generally we all understand it's a very difficult and dangerous job.

What you will see criticized is bone-headed errors or "holier-than-thou" attitudes that a few individuals in this line of work do have.

In this case you're getting the reaction you are because your friend apparently has a very fundamental misunderstanding of how our legal system works. And for someone whose job it is to enforce that legal system, that's a rather dangerous and scary thing for those of us on the other side of that badge.

I'm sure he's a great guy. Probably be good to have a beer with and maybe even takes his kids to church. But the comments are aimed at his knowledge of the very system he is supposed to enforce, that's all.

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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:10 pm 
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kecker wrote:
Please point out the open hatred towards officer in this thread or anywhere on this board.

You'll have difficulty because that is extremely rare and generally not tolerated. In fact quite a few of the people posting on this board are LEOs themselves. And generally we all understand it's a very difficult and dangerous job.

What you will see criticized is bone-headed errors or "holier-than-thou" attitudes that a few individuals in this line of work do have.

In this case you're getting the reaction you are because your friend apparently has a very fundamental misunderstanding of how our legal system works. And for someone whose job it is to enforce that legal system, that's a rather dangerous and scary thing for those of us on the other side of that badge.

I'm sure he's a great guy. Probably be good to have a beer with and maybe even takes his kids to church. But the comments are aimed at his knowledge of the very system he is supposed to enforce, that's all.


Indeed.

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"Man has the right to deal with his oppressors by devouring their palpitating hearts." - Jean-Paul Marat


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:37 am 
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It's great that he's a nice guy and loves his community and all, but that isn't going to go far with me if he locks me or someone else up for doing something perfectly legal for the sole reason that he is ignorant of the law.

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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:00 am 
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72_chev_truck wrote:
I would like to say that I made a mistake in posting this thread. Had I known that simply listing the word officer would cause such a ruckus I would have never posted. I also made the mistake of mentioning he thought it illegal to open carry. Due to my being tired, I decided to send him the thread. I will willingly take the shit storm that I myself created.

I am disappointed in the open hatred and name calling towards the officers that make our communities safer.


My friend is a tremendous officer and I think you all need to know this. He puts his vest and uniform on every day not knowing if he will make it home. I certainly am not man enough to take on the responsibility that he does. He makes the community he lives in, safer for all those living there. He is courageous and we should all be thankful for that.


Though I understand your loyalty and defensiveness of your friend, blatantly false claims like this carry potentially serious consequences in this forum. There is no hatred to be found which is subjective anyway, but name calling is something that is provable and it doesn't exist. If you can find an example of it, any moderator would be more than happy to defend the claim. I am not a moderator but I'm just trying to give you a little heads up. Not only that, but it's insulting to people that have openly offered to help by offering their services free of charge.

No one in this thread has said anything derogatory about this officer. They have simply pointed out that he is wrong. You may not think it is a big deal, but the people that are responding to you here have been carrying for many years and actions that this officer will take based on his incorrect interpretation of the law will have direct effect on them.

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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:08 am 
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72_chev_truck wrote:
I would like to say that I made a mistake in posting this thread.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I think you did your friend a favor.
Quote:
Had I known that simply listing the word officer would cause such a ruckus I would have never posted. I also made the mistake of mentioning he thought it illegal to open carry. Due to my being tired, I decided to send him the thread. I will willingly take the shit storm that I myself created.

I am disappointed in the open hatred and name calling towards the officers that make our communities safer.
Me, too. And if it ever happens on the Forum, please be sure to report it. The Forum software makes that very easy.
Quote:


My friend is a tremendous officer and I think you all need to know this.

But we don't. All we know about him is that you think highly of him, as people often do of their friends, and that he's got a fundamental misconception about the law that makes him potentially dangerous, given his job -- he thinks that if there's no statute permitting a citizen to do something, it's illegal. And that's pretty bad. He still may be a nice guy to his friends, and I don't doubt your word even a little on that.
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He puts his vest and uniform on every day not knowing if he will make it home.
Nobody knows if they're going to make it home when they go to work. And, yes, police work can be dangerous -- it's not nearly as dangerous as truck driving, roofing, farming, ranching or commercial fishing, say, but, yeah, there are some risks in it.
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I certainly am not man enough to take on the responsibility that he does. He makes the community he lives in, safer for all those living there. He is courageous and we should all be thankful for that.
Me, I worry about guys with badges and guns who have such basic, fundamental misunderstands of the nature of the laws they're supposed to enforce.

But I have no doubt that he's a nice guy to his friends.

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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:53 pm 
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maybe i was making generalizations about the thoughts of officers in typical forum settings. Once again, tired while posting. I did go through and read the posts again, the post name calling and open hatred was a tad over the top. Thank you for kindly setting me straight. I apologize for the false accusation


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Thank you for your retraction.

As to the general reaction to your intitial post, I hope most people would react poorly to anyone who claims that a Police Officer does not know the law he is expected to enforce. We, the people, can not use ignorance of the law as a defense. Why should an officer be allowed to do so? That is what, I believe, most were reacting to.

We all make mistakes. Yet, it shows much about your character how we react to critique. We all hope that your friend hears what you say and takes it to heart and learns from it. Good luck with your discussion.

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Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:14 pm 
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72_chev_truck wrote:
maybe i was making generalizations about the thoughts of officers in typical forum settings. Once again, tired while posting. I did go through and read the posts again, the post name calling and open hatred was a tad over the top. Thank you for kindly setting me straight. I apologize for the false accusation
Apology accepted; and nicely done, for that matter.

And, yup, there are places where it's the conventional "wisdom" that all cops are necessarily jackbooted thugs who were bullies as kids and are bullies now, and who live to thump cripples. There are also places where the conventional "wisdom" is that any criticism of some real issues -- and there are some -- among many in the badged set should simply be dismissed as "cop bashing" and never addressed.

We don't do that here. I'm not suggesting that we're soft-spoken or moderate, as some of us -- me, particularly -- are very much not. But I am saying that the standard here is, I hope, fairness if not always gentleness.

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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:05 pm 
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Moby Clarke wrote:
We all make mistakes. Yet, it shows much about your character how we react to critique. We all hope that your friend hears what you say and takes it to heart and learns from it. Good luck with your discussion.


Agreed, it's always nice to see a new face that takes constructive criticism well. As you (72_chev_truck) sort of alluded to earlier, online forums can bring out the worst in communication skills.

But mostly I wanted to second what Moby said about hoping your friends hears what you say and takes it to heart.

None of the criticism is directed at him as a person, merely his understanding of the legal system. Which absolutely MUST be corrected...post-haste. Even if he were a non-LEO citizen, that is a very poor, and potentially dangerous, view of the way our legal system works. For his benefit, and obviously ours, it's a view that needs to be corrected.

Now that could be done by you. I'm sure there are some here that would be willing as well. But mark my words, if it's not corrected, reality will eventually give him a big slap in the face and the outcome will not be happy for all parties involved.

So for your friend's sake, sit down and have a nice heart-to-heart with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Open Carry in MN
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:55 pm 
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mrokern wrote:
72_chev_truck wrote:
Process for a permit holder to get in trouble:

1) Be notified that the establishment bans guns
2) Be asked to leave the establishment
3) Refuse to leave after being asked
4) Be dumb enough to stick around to get a trespassing ticket from the responding officer

Signs play a role in #1.


Process for anybody to get in trouble:

1) Be told to leave the establishment.
2) Refuse to leave after being told
3) Be dumb enough to stick around to get a trespassing ticket from the responding officer.

I believe that the penalty for generic trespassing is higher than the penalty for permit holder trespassing.


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