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Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - Carrying on Indian reservations - the definitive answer
 
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 Carrying on Indian reservations - the definitive answer 
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:34 am 
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phorvick wrote:
Notwithstanding Andrew's good work and research, I will continue to recommend to my students that you carry on Indian Land at your peril. There are numerous States that specifically note that Indian Land is governed by their respective Tribal Councils (OR and AZ for example) and clearly warn folks that carry is not permitted.


Right. But those states are not subject to PL280, as Minnesota is (as is most of Alaska, California, Nebraska, Oregon and Wisconsin).

I understand your <strike>paranoia</strike> um... caution, but there is no more reason to believe that carrying on a Minnesota reservation will get you in trouble than there is to believe that carrying at the Excel Center will. Neither has been litigated, but the law on each is crystal clear.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:42 am 
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Arguements for both sides:
Quote:
Public Law 280, however, is a complicated statute which has been very controversial since the time of its enactment in 1953. It has often been misunderstood and misapplied by both federal and state governments. Moreover, the practical impact of Public Law 280 has gone far beyond that which was legally required, intended, and contemplated.

and if Mystic already uses Prior Lake cops, they may know exactly what's going on.

(seeing that prior lake cop coming from mystic makes sense now...)

EDIT: hmmm
Quote:
...and the criminal laws of such State or Territory shall have the same force and effect within such Indian country as they have elsewhere within the State or Territory:

http://www.tribal-institute.org/lists/pl_280.htm

Since 624.714 is really a criminal code...

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Last edited by Pakrat on Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:46 am 
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All I know is if I'm going to be carrying a gun on an Indian reservation, I'm not going with anyone named "Custer".

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:43 pm 
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I went up to Mark's shop today with my shotgun (no case). I'm coming in the back door. Mark said "Don't you F'ing carry..." {I started to panic} "...in the casino!"

I thought he might shoot me for carrying the shotgun in.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:26 pm 
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 Post subject: Jackpot Junction
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:03 pm 
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mnrivrat wrote:
Jackpot Junction (lower souix ) has posted signs that indicate a ban on guns as well as $1,000 fine and firearm confiscation. This is apparently all BS ??


The wife and I are going for the weekend. Anybody have any other info about this? Could they confiscate a permit holders gun on the rez??...
or anyplace for that matter? Are there any instances where a permit holder could have their weapon confiscated when they are "legally"
carrying.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:53 am 
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If they catch you they will take the gun and remove you and ban you. I don't think they'll jail you or cite you right then, unless you a community member. (But they might.)

But if you want your gun back you'll probably have to go to Tribal Court to get it back.

Minnesota Courts often make an initial finding of "No jurisdiction" and would probably dismiss your lawsuit to recover your gun.

Leave your guns in the car. The casino is very safe. You can get an armed escort to carry your winnings back to your car. Have fun!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:17 am 
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Do you have some basis for these assertions? Experience? Case law?

With the exception of Red Lake and Nett Lake, all Indian lands in the state are under state law, and confiscation is specifically prohibited.



Dick Unger wrote:
If they catch you they will take the gun and remove you and ban you. I don't think they'll jail you or cite you right then, unless you a community member. (But they might.)

But if you want your gun back you'll probably have to go to Tribal Court to get it back.

Minnesota Courts often make an initial finding of "No jurisdiction" and would probably dismiss your lawsuit to recover your gun.

Leave your guns in the car. The casino is very safe. You can get an armed escort to carry your winnings back to your car. Have fun!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:06 am 
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The tribes resolve everything in favor of their own soveregnty. That's why they probably won't charge a non-community member. (I don't think they have jurisdiction over a non-member but I doubt they'll admit that.)

And they won't want appeals court cases which they might lose. If they take your gun, it's only a civil matter.

If you sue in State Court, you will have to sue the Tribe itself, which is a sovereign nation. Most of the state trial court judges will tend to find "no jurisidiction". (You could appeal that.) The tribal government may have consented to State law being effective against you while on the reservation, it may not consent to be sued itself in State court.

Judges can be personally liable for acting without jurisdiction and so are pretty carefull. On the other hand there is no liability for finding no jurisdiction. And if there is jurisdiction there may be no way to enforce a judgement against the tribe if they resist.

As a practical matter the court costs alone will be more than the gun is worth, and it would be hard to get an attorney.

The best bet is ask for a county sheriff to come out and handle the matter before you leave. They may give the gun to him. Although the gun can't be "confiscated" it can be kept for "evidence" almost indefinitely. But if a county deputy has your gun, you should be able to get it back eventually. You could effectively sue the county.

But there is no peaceful way you can resist casino security. If they keep the gun, I think you'll lose it as a practical matter.

This stuff changes all the time. And the Tribes are not consistant. They do tend to be reactive rather than proactive. I think they'll take your gun and just ignore the matter.

I have just a little experience with this stuff; that's the way it always has been. Maybe somebody else has had better luck with a small claim against a tribe or it's casino.

But any answer will be uncertain because the law has never been settled. Sovereignty is too complicated.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:14 am 
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Dick Unger wrote:
The tribes resolve everything in favor of their own soveregnty. That's why they probably won't charge a non-community member. (I don't think they have jurisdiction over a non-member but I doubt they'll admit that.)


I'm afraid I don't understand. Casino security can't "charge" anyone. And a casino security guard is no more taking my gun than a Best Buy security guard. Not gonna happen.

They may call the police (the county sheriff) if they wish, and it'll then be dealt with under Minnesota law -- WHICH SAYS THE POLICE CANNOT TAKE YOUR GUN.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:22 am 
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Dont' some reservations (Like Red Lake) have their own police departments?

The Prior Lake PD is responsible to provide police protection at Mystic Lake, and in that case, I'd expect them to enforce the law same as off the reservation. I don't think they have special laws in force for just the reservation.
Mystic Lake does have their own unarmed (AFIK) security, and I wouldn't hand my gun over to them- worst case was the Prior Lake PD would be summoned, and I'd deal with them- hopefully same rules as off reservation.



But what I'm more curious about is what would happen with a tribal PD, such as Red Lake- I'm pretty sure they have their own PD- I recall hearing about it when their shootings were in the news a while ago.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:26 am 
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As the original post, and mine a few posts up, says, Red Lake and Nett Lake are the exceptions to Public Law 280. Red Lake does have a police department; The Nett Lake Rez is apparently about the size and population of a postage stamp.

Brewman wrote:
Dont' some reservations (Like Red Lake) have their own police departments?

The Prior Lake PD is responsible to provide police protection at Mystic Lake, and in that case, I'd expect them to enforce the law same as off the reservation. I don't think they have special laws in force for just the reservation.
Mystic Lake does have their own unarmed (AFIK) security, and I wouldn't hand my gun over to them- worst case was the Prior Lake PD would be summoned, and I'd deal with them- hopefully same rules as off reservation.



But what I'm more curious about is what would happen with a tribal PD, such as Red Lake- I'm pretty sure they have their own PD- I recall hearing about it when their shootings were in the news a while ago.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:58 pm 
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Brewman wrote:
Dont' some reservations (Like Red Lake) have their own police departments?

The Prior Lake PD is responsible to provide police protection at Mystic Lake, and in that case, I'd expect them to enforce the law same as off the reservation. I don't think they have special laws in force for just the reservation.
Mystic Lake does have their own unarmed (AFIK) security, and I wouldn't hand my gun over to them- worst case was the Prior Lake PD would be summoned, and I'd deal with them- hopefully same rules as off reservation.



But what I'm more curious about is what would happen with a tribal PD, such as Red Lake- I'm pretty sure they have their own PD- I recall hearing about it when their shootings were in the news a while ago.


First the police can take your gun, temporarily for their protection, and then as evidence while they investigate. Minnesota cannot forfeit your gun or "confiscate" it. The Tribe will say, "We're not Minnesota". It's then a civil matter between you and the tribe if they have the gun, instead of police who work for a sub-division of Minnesota. (County Sheriff)

That why I suggested you get the Sheriff out. But the Security can "detain" you. And they have both the right and the ability to do that. Casinos have pretty heavy duty security. If you resist, then that's better for them, they'll charge you with assault (with a weapon, maybe.)

Additionally, I'm pretty sure some of the security will be deputized by the County Sheriff, or be an off-duty. The security is armed. Casino Security is not for rookies. It won't be like the library. And there is a team of security there, not just one old guy. But do ask for an outside deputy to take your gun. Avoid getting a disorderly conduct charge. And good luck.

There are in fact laws on most reservations. I don't know about Mystic Lake, but Lower and Upper Sioux (Jackpot Junction and Firefly Creek) are fairly sophisticated. Whether a non-member is subject to these laws is open. The tribe invites Minnesota in for their convenience not yours.

If you walk up to the door and ask to bring in your gun, they'll say no. I think the casinos are even posted. If you are concealed they won't know. A lot depends on the whole situation when they find the gun. Security guy can say, get out, or decide to take control of you.

I don't think we will ever get a clear cut case. (If we do, and win, the Minn legislature will change the law for casinos. DFL gets lots of money from tribes.)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:04 pm 
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I hope this doesn't turn out like that other thread...

I'm with Andrew. Keeping Mystic as the example- if security tries to confiscate your gun, it's akin to theft. Theft of a firearm is a felony.

Carrying under a permit falls under criminal laws, mystic cannot enforce anything that is covered by criminal law. Even if they had their own licensed police force, they can't do anything but enforce 624.714 like any other police.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:15 pm 
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Pakrat wrote:
Carrying under a permit falls under criminal laws, mystic cannot enforce anything that is covered by criminal law. Even if they had their own licensed police force, they can't do anything but enforce 624.714 like any other police.

Red Lake isn't part of the State of Minnesota, and doesn't have to adhere to its laws. 624.714 is just a random number the minute you set foot on Red Lake land. The have to adhere to federal regulations, but that's about it.
The Red Lake tribe makes it's own laws and has it's own police force. The carry law there is whatever the tribal council says it is. So yes, casino security probably can't do anything to you. But if they call tribal police, and the tribal police decide to take your gun away from you and throw you in the pokey, you're most likely SOL.


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