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Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - Carrying on Indian reservations - the definitive answer
 
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 Carrying on Indian reservations - the definitive answer 
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:25 pm 
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You just don't get it. You can sue Indians, but not the INDIAN GOVERNMENT. Minnesota Courts have held that there is no jurisdiction over the INDIAN GOVERNMENT, regardless of what Public Law 280
says. And Minnesota could not ENFORCE a judgement against them either. Sort of like sueing Canada. You'd have to sue in a Canadian
Court, regardless of US law. And a US Sheriff cannot go to Canada and seize a gun. Canada would say "So What?" And if the United States passed a law claiming jurisdiction in Canada, the Candians could safely ignore that law.

Sometimes the Tribe will accept jurisdiction, like if there is a case with the company they buy slot machines from. But some guy who wants his GUN back? I don't think so.

It's not like this stuff is a secret. Go ask some attorney you trust. To sue successfully you need both the substantive law and the procedural law on your side, and a court with jurisdiction that can enforce it's orders.


Whether a case is civil or criminal depends on the nature of the case, not the underlying law. Getting charged with a crime is criminal. But you'll never get charged so there won't be a criminal case. Getting your gun back is civil in nature. YOU have to sue THEM.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:04 pm 
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I dunno. The tribe takes my gun, I'm going to the county attorney and filing a theft report. Now it's criminal.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:13 pm 
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This is getting as bad as the post office "discussion"........
SO to summarize the legal and factual situation for us IANAL:

1) We believe but don't know definitively about the Post Office and are looking for a volunteer to validate either theory a) you can and nothing will happen to you, or b) you can't and bad things will happen to you.

2)We believe but don't know definitavely about the Indian Reservations and are looking for a volunteer to validate either theory a) you can and nothing will happen to you, or b) you can't and bad things will happen to you.

Bottom line is that we need two volunteers............... :shock:

.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:32 pm 
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Well the Tribal government has your gun, and is still immune from State prosecution. That would extend to an officer acting on behalf of the Tribal government as well. I think you'd have to go to the federal government because as a sovereign, the Tribe outranks the State of Minnesota, which is only a subdivision of the United States. But the feds probably won't help either. You'd have rights but no remedy.

But then the County Attorney could try to explain this. I have not been doing too well.

It's really a political matter. You could ask your State Senator or Representative to help. They probably are on a first name basis with the people at the res.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:00 pm 
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Dick, why are you ignoring this?

Andrew Rothman wrote:
A few tribes (Mille Lacs, Lower Sioux and Fond du Lac) have their own police departments. These departments may enforce Minnesota Law on tribal land, under the same rules as any city police department.

THEY ALSO WAIVE SOVERIEGN IMMUNITY from claims against their actions.

See MN Stat 626.90.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:14 pm 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
Dick, why are you ignoring this?

Andrew Rothman wrote:
A few tribes (Mille Lacs, Lower Sioux and Fond du Lac) have their own police departments. These departments may enforce Minnesota Law on tribal land, under the same rules as any city police department.

THEY ALSO WAIVE SOVERIEGN IMMUNITY from claims against their actions.

See MN Stat 626.90.



I go by my experience and the experiences of other people. The statute is in response to an agreement between the State and Mille Lacs Band. I don't have any experience with Mille Lacs, but I think they manage their affairs pretty well as reservations go. They are more likely than others to honor this agreement. The agreement provides police and courts for Mille Lacs and I'm sure it is a good deal for the band. Notice that he band appoints the police officers and the county prosecutes people the band's police arrest or cite. So the Mille Lac County attorney would refer you to the Tribe's officers to investigate your case against the Tribes officers, or the Tribal goverment that employs them.

Notice the Statute doesn't say what happens if either the State or the Band falls short in one or more instances. Does the Minnesota Sheriff use the power of the County against the Band? Do the Tribal Police use power against the State of Minnesota? NO, of course not.

Now some of the tribal governments are pretty honorable, some are really disfunctional, and some are run by actual criminals. All of them realize the Minnesota Court has limited power to enforce judgements on the Band, just as the Band has little power to enforce it's judgements off the res.

I'd bet if you lost your gun on some reservations, the cop's kids or the casino boss would shoot up your ammo the next day just for fun. When you sued nobody would even remember your gun. You probably know where that is likely to happen by the past news stories.

In my experience the Tribes often do not even respond to a court summons or do not respond completely unless they want to. They know nothing will happen, on a claim for a $500 gun. They are busy spending millions a month in casino revenues and collecting government aid.

The Statute looks good but there's a hundred legal maneuvers and a thousand illegal maneuvers that can and usually do happen. They could deny the Statute applies to the case. They could tell you they have inherent sovereignty regardless of the agreement, they can pick and choose. Sometimes there is more than one government set up and we don't know which one is in charge.

When you do get a court decision, you have to ask the Tribe to enforce the decision. If somebody important hocked the gun or wants to keep it....

That's why I suggest you ask for the County Sheriff to be summoned to take your gun. Of course, if you've been argueing he may cite you for Disorderly or Obstruction and now it's a lot more complicated. Those charges don't require much proof and they can be pled out later or you could spend 10 grand in attorney fees before the subject of your gun comes up. Costs the Band nothing.

Believe me the Bands know how to play the game. Now Minneapolis can play some of the same games too. But that's a government we elect. And it stays more or less accountable to us. Not so with a soveriegn tribe that selects it's own leaders and runs it's own elections which the Chief never seems to lose no matter how badly he behaves. You don't vote and never will. (The Chief's relatives, that have tribal jobs like Police Officer do vote.)

So, if they take your gun, just mail them a copy of the Statute, maybe that'll fix em.


Last edited by Dick Unger on Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:03 pm 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:

.............. And a casino security guard is no more taking my gun than a Best Buy security guard. Not gonna happen.



Which begs the question, How far would you go in preventing 5, 6 maybe 10 "security" personal
from trying to disarm you.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:53 am 
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hammAR wrote:
Bottom line is that we need two volunteers............... :shock:


Or one *very* wealthy one...

I think we've reached the great divide between what one *can* do, and what one *ought* do- legally, as I understand it, you *can* carry your AK-47 on your shoulder down the street, so long as you have a permit and aren't pointing it at anyone. *Ought* you do this? I think not- "test cases are for other people..."

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 Post subject: Old joke
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:08 am 
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Phone call from client to his attorney:

"Don't worry," says the attorney, "they can't put you in jail for that."

"But, Counselor, I'm calling from jail. . . "

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:59 pm 
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oscar wrote:
Andrew Rothman wrote:

.............. And a casino security guard is no more taking my gun than a Best Buy security guard. Not gonna happen.



Which begs the question, How far would you go in preventing 5, 6 maybe 10 "security" personal
from trying to disarm you.


Pretty far, when I was a bit younger I worked security at Mystic. There is no way they would approach you in an attempt to disarm. You would probably be politely talked to by a security superviser, who would ask you nicely and firmly to remove the firearm from the premise. If you didn't comply they would call the police in. Now I can't say what the police would do, but I cannot imagine a situation where any number of security guards would attempt to disarm an individual, it would go against corporate policy, and sanity. If they noticed it when you walked in, they would probably inform you that firearms are not allowed in the casino, and if you ignored them they would call the eye in the sky and a shift to handle it.

*edit- Ok, I can think of one possibility, but I'm guessing no one here would be waving a gun around or worse at the casino.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:48 pm 
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oscar wrote:
Andrew Rothman wrote:

.............. And a casino security guard is no more taking my gun than a Best Buy security guard. Not gonna happen.



Which begs the question, How far would you go in preventing 5, 6 maybe 10 "security" personal
from trying to disarm you.


What I'm wondering is whether I can (as a non-Tribal member) dodge arrest (for argument's sake, say peacefully and sneakily) and then make them try to have me extradited?

I keep thinking of the past situations where planes and boats were confiscated? What happens if those people had managed to flee off tribal land -- is it like making it back into West Berlin? Could they charge you with something in tribal court and force you to attend (like a summons), or could you demand extradition due to their sovereign status?

It seems like every time you hear about this "sovereign nation" status, its only in reference to their advantage.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:51 pm 
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Dick Unger wrote:
SethB wrote:
Dick Unger wrote:
First the police can take your gun, temporarily for their protection, and then as evidence while they investigate. Minnesota cannot forfeit your gun or "confiscate" it. The Tribe will say, "We're not Minnesota".

In that case, they have no authority over me; only the federal and state governments do (cities are creatures of the state).

Look, first they'll take your gun. They've got more horses than you, and you're on their reservation. What are you going to do at that point? Shoot your way out? Of course not.

Later, when you want your gun back, you'll be ignored. If you sue they'll say we can't be sued in a Minnesota court.

What they? I'd file felony armed robbery charges against the individual who took my property without my permission.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:57 pm 
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SethB wrote:
Dick Unger wrote:
SethB wrote:
Dick Unger wrote:
First the police can take your gun, temporarily for their protection, and then as evidence while they investigate. Minnesota cannot forfeit your gun or "confiscate" it. The Tribe will say, "We're not Minnesota".

In that case, they have no authority over me; only the federal and state governments do (cities are creatures of the state).

Look, first they'll take your gun. They've got more horses than you, and you're on their reservation. What are you going to do at that point? Shoot your way out? Of course not.

Later, when you want your gun back, you'll be ignored. If you sue they'll say we can't be sued in a Minnesota court.

What they? I'd file felony armed robbery charges against the individual who took my property without my permission.


County Attorney files the charges. Be sure to first get elected County Attorney. then you're good to go.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:12 pm 
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Dick Unger wrote:
County Attorney files the charges. Be sure to first get elected County Attorney. then you're good to go.

You're this type of person huh?

Joe Schmoe: "What time is it?"
John Smith: "It's about 5"
Dick: "More like 5:02, he he he {nerd laugh}"

I'm sure SethB meant he'd file a police report... geez. No one really cares enough about the legal terminology to actually run for county attorney. :roll:

If you keep correcting something that is inconsequential, people will stop speaking to you.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:05 am 
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Pakrat wrote:
Dick Unger wrote:
County Attorney files the charges. Be sure to first get elected County Attorney. then you're good to go.

You're this type of person huh?

Joe Schmoe: "What time is it?"
John Smith: "It's about 5"
Dick: "More like 5:02, he he he {nerd laugh}"

I'm sure SethB meant he'd file a police report... geez. No one really cares enough about the legal terminology to actually run for county attorney. :roll:

If you keep correcting something that is inconsequential, people will stop speaking to you.


Sorry you're frustrated, We're been playing a role here. In real life, people feel a lot worse dealing with these issues. You can lose a lot more than your gun relying of the clearly written law.

The world has not yet found a way to resolve this stuff and it holds everybody back.

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