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 92KQRS- Tom Barnard carry discussion 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:11 am 
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joelr wrote:
Philosophically, it gets a bit complicated, I think. Imagine a situation where, for example, the money that you have on you is necessary to get a loved one a needed, life-saving operation. That is, in this hypothetical, quite literally the value of a human life.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that you know that there is no other way that this loved one will get that operation without that money that you have on you.

Do you kill the robber to prevent him from taking it?


I have noticed many times that when someone is robbed of money that was really needed of for Meds or something really important (as has recently happened) other people will generously help out. This makes the hypothetical a little harder to make.

I do think though that lethal force is justified if the person is stealing something that would cause another to die with out, and that something can not be replaced -- for example stealing a human heart from an organ courier.

Also IMHO lethal force would be justified if the person was stealing something that was very deadly -- for example the Small Pox Virus or a Man Portable Nuke.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:59 pm 
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joelr wrote:
Philosophically, it gets a bit complicated, I think. Imagine a situation where, for example, the money that you have on you is necessary to get a loved one a needed, life-saving operation. That is, in this hypothetical, quite literally the value of a human life.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that you know that there is no other way that this loved one will get that operation without that money that you have on you.

Do you kill the robber to prevent him from taking it?

More generally, I'm not in favor of killing somebody over property, as a general principle. I am, though, very much in favor of would-be robbers thinking that they might get killed if they try to take somebody's property, as it might persuade at least some of them do something else.

In any case, in Minnesota -- with the possible exception of defense of dwelling -- it's simply unlawful to kill somebody over a property crime, so that pretty much settles the practical matter.


Wasn't the original premise behind hanging horse theives that in "olden days" loss of a horse was a paritcularly grave outcome for the horse's owner who may have been depending on the horse to harvest crops or some other task necessary for survival?

I think in many cases today there's a very real potential that the loss of some reasonably small amount of property/money may lead to a chain of events that can result in all kinds unpleasant if not outright fatal outcomes.

A $100 stolen means missed rent leads to eviction which leads to homelessness which leads to loss of a job which leads to loss of health benefits which leads to not being able to afford some medicine (high blood pressure, diabetes, etc), which leads to an untimely death.

While it seems like the ethical high road to condem the use of deadly force to deter the theft of $100, what's ethical about thowing people's lives into chaos or worse?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:48 pm
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Location: Minnetonka
I would just like to throw out the thought that, without using force, or the threat of force that is significant enough to cause one to fear serious injury or death, how exactly is one being robbed? I personally have dealt with someone trying to take my vehicle from me. To be honest, driving away and letting him shoot at my while I tried to drive away from a full stop didn't seem like a brilliant idea at the time. Neither did just giving him my vehicle and hoping that he really wouldn't use the gun he was pointing at me. Fortunately, I was lucky and the firearm was not continuously pointed in my direction, but, had I had to shoot and defend myself instead of him running away, I would not have shot someone over my car, I would have shot someone over my life.

Then again, I was happy to have clean underwear when it was over, so what do I know????


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:02 am 
You walked away with your life! Enough said!
goalie wrote:
I would just like to throw out the thought that, without using force, or the threat of force that is significant enough to cause one to fear serious injury or death, how exactly is one being robbed? I personally have dealt with someone trying to take my vehicle from me. To be honest, driving away and letting him shoot at my while I tried to drive away from a full stop didn't seem like a brilliant idea at the time. Neither did just giving him my vehicle and hoping that he really wouldn't use the gun he was pointing at me. Fortunately, I was lucky and the firearm was not continuously pointed in my direction, but, had I had to shoot and defend myself instead of him running away, I would not have shot someone over my car, I would have shot someone over my life.

Then again, I was happy to have clean underwear when it was over, so what do I know????


  
 
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:45 am 
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joelr wrote:
More generally, I'm not in favor of killing somebody over property, as a general principle.


I know this is preaching to the choir, but few people would hand over any money if there wasn't an explicit threat to your person. I don't know about you, but if somebody asked for my money without a weapon in their hand I'd probably just give them a quizical look and keep walking.


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