Haven't we been there done that??? for what about 20 plus years? Reforming the criminals doesn't work... But - there is some evidence that the Death penalty does have an impact on criminals... I think that a threat of HARD time will have the same outcome... the THREAT of attempting to reform them obviously doesn't have an impact. The THREAT that a potential victum MAY be armed has been demonstrated by Dr. Lott to reduce crime. The threat of jail time keeps many lawabiding - if the threat was "obay the law or we take away your birthday" I don't think you will have the same outcome.

ok... still editing...
I think Criminals ARE rational as demonstrated by Dr. Lotts studies and a lot of evidence. LARGE folks (BKraft kick in if I'm wrong about this) don't typically get hasseled as it is not in a criminals best interest to attack someone larger then they are as they are likely to get stomped. Now if it is very likely that criminals will get caught and will not like the time they spend in the hooscow (with no parole)- it will be in their best interest to only strike when they are dead sure they won't get caught.

Jail time was once hard time - and we didn't have "as many" criminals. I don't know it worked before.

Mostly-

This pretty much sums it up...........



penalties are for those that respect and fear the law....

.

and fear the penalty of breaking the law. No fear of the penalty then no fear of the law.

Mostly

Yep.........we are in agreement..............

.

It sure cuts down on the repeat offenders.

That's demonstrably false. While criminals decidedly operate under a different set of morals, they follow that moral code in a rational manner.

* Robbers wear masks to avoid getting caught.
* Burglars favor unoccupied dwellings, since that both lowers the risk of capture or injury and results in a lighter sentence if caught.
* Thieves and rapists prey on the weak and helpless, in isolated areas, to reduce the chance of resistance and capture.
* Mass shooters choose victim disarmament zones (like Amish schools, not police stations), to increase their chances of success.

These are all rational behaviors designed to accomplish amoral goals. If capture, conviction and imprisonment were not deterrents to criminal behavior, criminals wouldn't take such measures to avoid it.

It follows, then, doesn't it, that more effective capture, conviction and confinement would further deter criminal behavior?

Anyway, it's clear to most that freeing up the prison beds taken by drug users would make room for some genuinely bad people.

There is only one problem. Lack of capture. The odds of even entering the criminal justice system are so low that the 1 in 100,000 chance of 10 years (even) is no viable threat. The "rational" criminal disregards the LAW entirely in all it's aspects.

Going to prison is like getting hit by lightening on a golf course. The magnitude is high but the likelihood is infinitesimal so as people continue to golf during storms, criminals continue to do the crime. Besides, crime is fun. Real fun for these guys. My clients could no more give up crime than sex.

Pavlo's dogs...

Everytime they attempt a crime - TAZER them... But I bet the "reformers" won't be offering this up as an option anytime soon.

Mostly-

Yep.

And there is no better example of this kind of behavior than... judges.

Been there? Done that? No, not since the 80's when we put in Sentencing guidelines in Minnesota.

There are few programs to "reform" anyone these days. That's just idle gas from people on the radio. There are only programs for people who have insurance, alcohol, gambling, AA, that stuff. It works 40% of the time for people who have not become sociopathic. But good programs are not available to most defendants.

People just go to jail or prison, then get probation or parole officer who wants to get rid of the file as quickly as possible. Either violate the client or early discharge him, and another file bites the dust.

[i]It works 40% of the time[/i]

That statistic seems pretty high, especially if you're not in the 40%, then you're a sociopath...at least that's what I'm reading.

I've seen treatment success rates as low as 13%...

Either way...the bad guy either wants to commit crime or not...it's free will mu-boy...free will. And a whole lot of nurture in the nature v. nurture argument.

Well, that's oversimplified. But most of regular prison inmates are sociopathic. They are the worst criminals But that's only a few of the people that go through the criminal system.

Most of the people in the "system" are addicted to something, and the programs have about a 40% success rate. That's my SWAG-experience, they claim a lot higher rate because "relapse" is simply part of the recovery???. If the addicts are not sociopathic, they do "recover" and become regular citizens.

But they can go thru the program several times. Although the treatment does not always work, most people do learn what is wrong with them, and then they can exercise "free will" at some time in the future.

I used to be skeptical about whether "addiction" really existed, but now I'm just as skeptical about whether "free will" actually exists.

All the people in the system are there because they do not or cannot cope with society. Treating everyone as if they have coping skills is the simplistic solution that hasn't worked for the last 100 years. (Before that we hung all the bad ones.) But now there's too many to hang or lockup forever.

Just because we're not real skilled at rehab doesn't mean we shouldn't ever do it. Society marches on. In 100 years the prison system we have will be considered the dark ages. IMHO

It would be possible to hang them all. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.



I agree. We have to try.

I am a strong believer in redemption, and believe that the idea of rehabilitation is pretty much worthless.

I don't think that we can fix people. To believe that we can is hubris.

People do change, sometimes. But the reasons for it are beyond our control and understanding.

We should recognize change, but we should abandon the pretense that we can cause it.

Maybe we'll finally perfect the Ludovico Technique.