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 My 1st Defensive Use Tonight, hopefully my last (Skyway) 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:58 pm 
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Wow, what a response! I have been at work all day, so I have waited to respond properly. Obviously this is the sort of thing that gets processed primarily in the days after (esp. for my girlfriend) and I do have some thoughts on yesterdays events.

1) Practice - The movements and decisions I had made ahead of time dictated the immediate actions I took and made them second-nature: no high-level thought needed. I refer specifically to the 'bladed stance' that Joel referred to with the palm out on the weak hand.

2) Duty to Retreat -
MnMonte wrote:
where would "duty to retreat" fit into this sceanario?
To be honest, that thought: "Get Outta Here!" was blaring thru my head, but that process was just beginning as I simultaneously responded to the threat. Those actions resulted in ending the threat. The complication was I was with the woman I love very much, and she needed to be the first to retreat. She obviously felt threatened as she got behind me and just barely tugged on my strong arm and said, "Let's go, let's go." We talked at dinner and came to an understanding that she was to run and call and I would follow as able. To respond to aypstony: my girlfriend accompanied me to the class I took Jan. '07 and has been supportive of my decision to take personal responsibility for my safety. Since she started working in downtown a few weeks ago, I 'made the offer' to pay for her permit expenses and go with her since I need FL and CO...it's on the table and seems to be in consideration (Joel's right: can't push it).

3) Waiting for the Police - This is something I normally would do, trust me the 911 dispatch probably has a call record a couple pages long from my cell phone (good calls). I have asked myself the same question because I do like the thought of this DGU being counted in the report (didn't know that happened). I guess we just needed to leave at the moment. To be clear, if I had drawn: I would have stayed for a police report and there would have been a number of citizens (probably alarmed) that would have seen my weapon. As it happened, I don't think anyone else had any clue why the man in the blue jacket made such a hasty exit. I did, however, warn the man that turned the corner shortly after not to continue and that the man in the blue jacket had attempted a hold-up.

4) Interpretation of the Threat - Thank you Scott Hughes, I couldn't have explained it better:
Scott Hughes wrote:
Each had a good sense of what the others intentions were.
It was clear as day, and even withstood the self-doubt that comes after an event like this: a command such as we were given: "Don't Move!" does not usually come without an implied threat of force and certainly not with the body language that was displayed yesterday. It set off alarm bells I didn't know I had. As for why I didn't draw: I guess I think of it as the continuum of force concept. The threat had not called for me draw quite yet IMHO, but it was very close. If he had not deescalated, it was about a half second from being pointed.

Well, I gotta run, but I have more thoughts I might post later on tonight

Thanks for all the comments, keep it coming: this is how I learn about carrying...from you.

--Jonathan


Last edited by ruffelo on Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:13 pm 
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I sent a copy of ruffelo's post to most all the sheepeople I know.

I felt it was a very good example of a confrontation deescalated without actually shooting someone (which some people think is the only recourse when you have a gun).

And asked them "What would do?"

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:27 pm 
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I'm glade it worked out for you!
I didn't read all the posts on this one so forgive me if it's been said or asked. What if the second guy would have been part of the first guys plans? As in they were working together as a team.. What would you, should you , could you have done? Was there any question as to " whos side" this guy would have been on?
Sorry but I'm just a what if kind of guy.
Again, glade your both safe!!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:02 pm 
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cops will always tell you to... "CY6" "Cover your six" meaning be aware of what's behind you.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:44 pm 
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Great job. Using a gun to avert violence. How can that be? I recall seeing an article in the Red Star Tribune a while back that basically stated that defensive use of weapons by CCW holders was non existent. The cops probably don't want to show up and take any kind of report or their stats will get all messed up.
Joel, have you ever considered a separate forum with a title such as "CCW In Practice" that would be a compilation of incidents such as Ruffelo's?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:55 pm 
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Eagle103 wrote:
Great job. Using a gun to avert violence. How can that be? I recall seeing an article in the Red Star Tribune a while back that basically stated that defensive use of weapons by CCW holders was non existent. The cops probably don't want to show up and take any kind of report or their stats will get all messed up.
Joel, have you ever considered a separate forum with a title such as "CCW In Practice" that would be a compilation of incidents such as Ruffelo's?
No, I haven't, but it's definitely worth thinking about.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:20 pm 
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Several have suggested waiting for the police and talking with them. Assuming the police actually show up, wouldn't that be pinning him (and his girlfriend) to a known location for an indefinite time for little potential gain (given that the gun wasn't shown, no shots fired). Any thoughts about that :?:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:17 am 
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JonL wrote:
Several have suggested waiting for the police and talking with them. Assuming the police actually show up, wouldn't that be pinning him (and his girlfriend) to a known location for an indefinite time for little potential gain (given that the gun wasn't shown, no shots fired). Any thoughts about that :?:

My thoughts are that you're talking to the 911-dispatcher, and the dispatcher is talking to the police. If you tell the dispatcher that you're going to leave, and the dispatcher doesn't ask you to wait for the police, there's no issue at all.

If there were a reason to wait, I would assume that the dispatcher would ask you to wait.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:17 am 
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Sure, to all of that. If I'd have read the situation as a low-grade mugger one -- which, from limited information, is what it looks like to me; I could be wrong -- I wouldn't be worried about hanging around, after he's fled. If I had any concerns at all, and thought that giving an in-person report to the police might be useful, I'd offer to rendezvous with the police at a nearby coffee shop or restaurant or something.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:47 am 
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DeanC wrote:
I think I just saw the guy in the same spot just now. Blue jacket, blue pants. About a five-day beard growth, dark, messy hair, most of it standing straight up.

He was talking to himself and seemed like he wanted to pan-handle the various folks ignoring him.


Saw him again this AM. I'll get a picture of him next time. He'll probably be there at lunch.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:05 am 
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I would of waited for the police for two reasons. Have my story filed with them, cover my butt.
and I feel it's a plus for the carry community to show the police the carry law works. We need all the GOOD publicity we can get



jdege wrote:
JonL wrote:
Several have suggested waiting for the police and talking with them. Assuming the police actually show up, wouldn't that be pinning him (and his girlfriend) to a known location for an indefinite time for little potential gain (given that the gun wasn't shown, no shots fired). Any thoughts about that :?:

My thoughts are that you're talking to the 911-dispatcher, and the dispatcher is talking to the police. If you tell the dispatcher that you're going to leave, and the dispatcher doesn't ask you to wait for the police, there's no issue at all.

If there were a reason to wait, I would assume that the dispatcher would ask you to wait.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:15 am 
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DeanC wrote:
Saw him again this AM. I'll get a picture of him next time. He'll probably be there at lunch.


So I was in the skyway system yesterday evening, and we saw a man wearing a very similar blue jacket, panhandling and such. Actually saw him 4 times last night: he was making the rounds. Gotta say though, I wasn't sure enough that it was the perp. This man (from yesterday) had a very distinctive walk: likes to hold his right arm out at an angle and swing it when he walks...you'll know it if you see him.

We couldn't honestly agree that it was him with surety. I thought he had a slighter build and a different face than the guy that threatened us. (Same jacket though, and obviously an all-day skyway-dweller...just don't know.)

We walked through a different overpass going into Lemington (sp?) parking garage, and it just made me think when I saw a disheveled man leaning against the wall intently watching each person walking past (8pm). I asked my girlfriend what she thought, after all he could be waiting for someone and just had a rough couple of days. We both agreed, however, that our impression was he was waiting for anyone. [That garage at that time, has about 5 cars left per level. She said that there was no way she would have entered that overpass alone, having had our experience the night before. I think she would really like some training, she's just not sure yet what type. She is thinking pro-actively though: she's changing into tennis shoes from her various heels before leaving work! I thought that was some good thinking.

The lovely lady has a question: if she was to carry in the future, it would do her no good to secure it in the car, so are other options to consider besides the obviously personal choice to carry discreetly into a workplace that may not allow her to do so as an employee?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:32 am 
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I'm certainly no expert on Women's carry options.

The P3at and a belly band seems to me as one option.
I'm not fond of the idea of Off-body carry as a rule as most times the purse is the object the guy is going to focus on. But if it's the only way ...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:06 pm 
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These "soft approach holdups" seem to happen all the time downtown. The words are amiguous, the intimidating approach is not. Any kind of a command voice from a dangerous looking person, especially with his buddies circling is obvious, but probably makes it hard to get a conviction.

The police should be able to set up stings for this. If we can bust people in bathrooms, we should be able to bust the intimidators.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:58 pm 
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ruffelo wrote:

The lovely lady has a question: if she was to carry in the future, it would do her no good to secure it in the car, so are other options to consider besides the obviously personal choice to carry discreetly into a workplace that may not allow her to do so as an employee?


Drop-leg holster. Skirt.

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