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 My 1st Defensive Use Tonight, hopefully my last (Skyway) 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:28 pm 
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johnnyg08 wrote:
mnglocker wrote:
His actions implied that he had a gun inside his jacket and was going to kill both of them if they moved.


Hmmm...I'm not sure, but a person reaching into his jacket, to assume that he's reaching for a gun...is a bit presumtive isn't it? I get what you're saying...but...maybe while on the phone he's reaching for a pen to jot down a phone number from whomever he's talking to? "Don't move..." Last time I checked that doesn't have much to do with a Terroristic Threat...good luck prosecuting that one...

I'm on the permit holder's team here, but sometimes a person can walk the line of paranoid verus prepared...thoughts?


I'd say that it wasn't just his reaching into his jacket. “he stepped towards the middle with his hand inside his jacket and loudly commanded, "Don't Move!" I’d say this was a good reason to expect an attack. I don’t think ruffelo was overreacting.

“he saw me dialing and shouted something to the effect of "don't do that" and actually turned to approach us again” This seems to be another indication of ill intent on his part. Again I don’t think ruffelo overreacted.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:04 pm 
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havegunjoe wrote:

I'd say that it wasn't just his reaching into his jacket. “he stepped towards the middle with his hand inside his jacket and loudly commanded, "Don't Move!" I’d say this was a good reason to expect an attack. I don’t think ruffelo was overreacting.



Anybody that gets in my way and says "Don't move!" had better either:

a) Be showing me a badge and identify themself as a peace officer
b) Be stopping me from walking into harm's way (aka something falling from above, a car speeding around a corner that I can't see, etc.)

Other than that, I'd hope I would react as well and with as much control as ruffelo.

-Mark


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:32 pm 
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I've been struggling over how to humbly ask this question, but fear my attempt has fallen short. So here it is. If your hand and arm are extended out between you and a possible adversary, how do you avoid shooting your own hand should you have to draw and fire?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:39 pm 
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well, I'm not an expert shooter by any means...but unless you're firing from the hip...you're probably going to shoot w/ two hands on the gun


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:55 pm 
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We saw him again:

So the lovely lady and myself were once again walking, yes...in the skyway, and as we turned a corner saw the man who accosted us in the exact same clothing. I might add that it was not man who I wrote about earlier with the particular walk. We quickly turned back around the corner and decided to take the opportunity to call him in.

To tell the truth, I have been regretting the decision not to stick around and try to make a police report. So I called, talked, and the dispatcher found my call record and dispatched the police. He remained at this particular skyway for most of the phone call, but then disappeared into the Baker Center. The dispatcher asked if I still wanted to talk to the police, and so I asked if there was a purpose to doing so and that I wished I had stuck around on Tuesday. She replied that I could still make a police report now when they arrived.

So this time we waited. The police arrived at the TCF building and (dangit, just realized I didn't grab their cards, usually remember that!) told them the events from Tuesday. They were polite, but their initial reaction was kinda: yeah...and...what can we do for you.....? I replied that I didn't want to waste their time, that I knew this was likely a "soft approach holdup" (thanks Dick Unger) but I thought it was prudent to do what I could to make this less likely to reoccur and that the dispatcher had advised me to stick around if I could. They warmed up a bit and kinda said thanks.

They asked for my ID but never asked for my Permit to Carry, which I had told them about. They seemed supportive of my choice to carry a handgun and the one comment they made was something like this: "You handled this well, but as a Permit holder we hope you know that if you have to pull the trigger, you should consider it a $1,000,000 decision."

I said I did understand that and that I took the responsibility very seriously and also that I was very happy that the event had not been more life-changing.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:57 pm 
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cdl wrote:
I've been struggling over how to humbly ask this question, but fear my attempt has fallen short. So here it is. If your hand and arm are extended out between you and a possible adversary, how do you avoid shooting your own hand should you have to draw and fire?


My hope is that my body will remember this if I ever get into the stress of having to do this for real:

If I have to put my hand on my gun, but not draw (as ruffelo did in this case), I would extend my hand. That one is easy to remember.

If I have to draw, that weak hand is going to come back during the draw and meet the strong hand/gun in front and close to my body. Simple from there to fire from a retention position close to the body, or to extend to your stance of choice given the time (yeah right, like I'd have time to get into a textbook perfect Weaver if SHTF).

-Mark


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:00 pm 
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ruffelo wrote:
They asked for my ID but never asked for my Permit to Carry, which I had told them about. They seemed supportive of my choice to carry a handgun and the one comment they made was something like this: "You handled this well, but as a Permit holder we hope you know that if you have to pull the trigger, you should consider it a $1,000,000 decision."


As police officers, I hope they know that if they have to pull the trigger, they should consider it a $1,000,000 decision.

Just saying...

-Mark


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 Post subject: Your Expeience
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:05 pm 
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Write all the Politicians with your experience and the great MPLS police advice. May help with the Castle or Democrat bill name of Right to Shoot.

If you see the guy again, advice him of all the soft targets at the Capitol.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:31 pm 
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cdl wrote:
I've been struggling over how to humbly ask this question, but fear my attempt has fallen short. So here it is. If your hand and arm are extended out between you and a possible adversary, how do you avoid shooting your own hand should you have to draw and fire?
Among other possibilities, you draw back your extended hand to take a two-handed grip on your handgun. If your hand is occupied physically fending off somebody, you've got serious problems that probably aren't going to be solved with a gun in your other hand. (This is why many people carry another tool, in addition to a handgun; fairly difficult -- and kind of likely to lose some fingers -- to grab a knife, after all.)

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Last edited by joelr on Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:55 pm 
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joelr wrote:
cdl wrote:
I've been struggling over how to humbly ask this question, but fear my attempt has fallen short. So here it is. If your hand and arm are extended out between you and a possible adversary, how do you avoid shooting your own hand should you have to draw and fire?
Among other possibilities, you draw back your extended hand to take a two-handed grip on your handgun. If your hand is occupied physically fending off somebody, you've got serious problems that probably aren't going to be solved with a gun in your other hand. (This is why many people carry another tool, in addition to a handgun.)
Or, you could be like Bruce Willis and shoot through yourself to get the BG!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:01 pm 
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Sounds like you better stay out of the skyway. and think about MOVING out of Dodge.!! lol

If not, you should carry a fake wallet to give a thief, a picture phone and a voice recorder.
Sure sounds like someday you'll be dancing with someone :(

ruffelo wrote:
We saw him again:

So the lovely lady and myself were once again walking, yes...in the skyway, and as we turned a corner saw the man who accosted us in the exact same clothing. I might add that it was not man who I wrote about earlier with the particular walk. We quickly turned back around the corner and decided to take the opportunity to call him in.

To tell the truth, I have been regretting the decision not to stick around and try to make a police report. So I called, talked, and the dispatcher found my call record and dispatched the police. He remained at this particular skyway for most of the phone call, but then disappeared into the Baker Center. The dispatcher asked if I still wanted to talk to the police, and so I asked if there was a purpose to doing so and that I wished I had stuck around on Tuesday. She replied that I could still make a police report now when they arrived.

So this time we waited. The police arrived at the TCF building and (dangit, just realized I didn't grab their cards, usually remember that!) told them the events from Tuesday. They were polite, but their initial reaction was kinda: yeah...and...what can we do for you.....? I replied that I didn't want to waste their time, that I knew this was likely a "soft approach holdup" (thanks Dick Unger) but I thought it was prudent to do what I could to make this less likely to reoccur and that the dispatcher had advised me to stick around if I could. They warmed up a bit and kinda said thanks.

They asked for my ID but never asked for my Permit to Carry, which I had told them about. They seemed supportive of my choice to carry a handgun and the one comment they made was something like this: "You handled this well, but as a Permit holder we hope you know that if you have to pull the trigger, you should consider it a $1,000,000 decision."

I said I did understand that and that I took the responsibility very seriously and also that I was very happy that the event had not been more life-changing.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:07 pm 
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Weak hand extended with the strong hand already on the gun, obviously given the time, the intent is that they meet somewhere, hopefully behind the muzzle. Waiting for your weak hand to touch your stomach before drawing seems like a lot to ask under pressure. The closer to the holster your forced to fire, the trickier it gets. Sticking your hand out is natural, perhaps even unavoidable, but should we be training to do it? Course I have a few carpenter buddies that do just fine with a few missing fingers.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:23 pm 
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cdl wrote:
Weak hand extended with the strong hand already on the gun, obviously given the time, the intent is that they meet somewhere, hopefully behind the muzzle. Waiting for your weak hand to touch your stomach before drawing seems like a lot to ask under pressure. The closer to the holster your forced to fire, the trickier it gets. Sticking your hand out is natural, perhaps even unavoidable, but should we be training to do it? Course I have a few carpenter buddies that do just fine with a few missing fingers.
I'll give you my opinion, if you'd like; you get to do what makes sense to you.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:25 pm 
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Quote:
how do you avoid shooting your own hand should you have to draw and fire?

Weak hand is high up near head, weak hand / arm can also be used to block a downward blow or an edged weapon attack by bending elbow at 90 degrees. Strong hand fire from the hip or extended as circumstance dictates.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:37 pm 
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cdl wrote:
I've been struggling over how to humbly ask this question, but fear my attempt has fallen short. So here it is. If your hand and arm are extended out between you and a possible adversary, how do you avoid shooting your own hand should you have to draw and fire?


Good time to take it to the next level. There are some good classes offered locally and outstate. I am sure that our own Don L. and maybe some others will offer some interesting classes when (if) the weather warms.

rtk


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