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 MN: Man pulls a gun on errant driver at Silver Lake playgrou 
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 Post subject: MN: Man pulls a gun on errant driver at Silver Lake playgrou
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:15 am 
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http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmanager ... 2&a=350564

Man pulls a gun on errant driver at Silver Lake playground
7/4/2008 11:55:02 PM
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By Matthew Stolle
Post-Bulletin, Rochester MN

Rochester police swarmed Silver Lake Community Playground on Friday evening after a man pulled a handgun in an attempt to thwart an errant driver from leaving the grounds, several witnesses said.

The incident began when the driver ran off the road, knocked down a fiber-optic pole, drove around a tree and then ran into another tree near the entrance to the park. The driver reportedly was revving his car in an attempt to back up when another man appeared with what one witness described as a 9 mm handgun and tried to stop the car from leaving.

"He came out of nowhere," said Jackie Young, a Rochester resident, in reference to the man with the gun. "(The driver) was trying to pull out. We (thought) the thing was going to explode because we saw all that oil, and this man -- he just came from nowhere -- with a big 9 mm."

Another witness said several children were standing around as the car was trying to leave.

"There's all these kids standing, and so the guy pulled the gun and said 'nope, don't move,' and then the cop finally got here," said a woman who declined to give her name.

The man waved the gun around, said Young, who thought the man was a police officer. But when the police arrived, he stooped down as if to lay the gun on the ground. Young said it then dawned on her that the man was not a police officer. He later was put in a squad car and was driven away.

The incident was reported at around 7 p.m., a time when scores of people had gathered at Silver Lake Community Playground to celebrate the Fourth of July.

Police were unavailable for comment.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:27 am 
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Very interesting.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:07 am 
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Odds of it actually being a 9mm?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:26 am 
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With so little information put forth, I find it interesting that some of those commenting in the Post Bulletin are already condemning his actions.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:53 am 
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sigman wrote:
With so little information put forth, I find it interesting that some of those commenting in the Post Bulletin are already condemning his actions.


Well obviously. He had a gun and could have hurt someone with it. Never mind that getting run over probably hurts. If only there was some statistic that showed which inanimate object killed more people every year.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:04 am 
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SultanOfBrunei wrote:
Odds of it actually being a 9mm?


It had to be a 9mm. It was "big". Don't pretend like you don't know that the 9mm is the biggest, most powerful handgun in the world.

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 Post subject: No good... no good at all.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:35 am 
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Assume for a second that the article info is accurate, including the 'witness' quotes... I realize this may not be the case. This may give us all a very black eye.

It appears that the individual was probably not a police officer - the witnesses make no reference to the man identifying himself to the vehicle driver as such. He also failed to identify himself as such upon Rochester police arrival. My hope is that he was not a 'well-meaning' permit holder although my gut tells me otherwise.

Remember Joel's book - A permit is not "a junior G-man's badge"

Directly from Joel's book (pg. 39) -

"In order to use- or threaten to use - lethal force in self-defense, four things must apply:

1. You must be a 'reluctant participant.'
2. You must be reasonably in immediate fear of "death or great bodily harm."
3. No lesser force will serve, making deadly force necessary.
4. Retreat is not possible. "

One would have a difficult time justifying that these conditions were met.

According to MN Statute 609.06 Authorized use of force

"2. When used by a person not a public officer in arresting another in the cases and in the manner provided by law and delivering the other to an officer competent to receive the other into custody"

This is the 'Authorized use of force' statute which allows "reasonable use of force upon or toward the person of another" (in this case, the driver of the car) "without the others consent in certain circumstances." The MN statute for authorized use of deadly force is entirely separate.

MN Statute 609.065 restricts the use of deadly force.

"The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode."

This guy's heart may have been in the right place but it'll be hard to argue that his actions were legal.

Looks to me like this guy may have overreacted to someone attempting to leave the scene of an accident. If this guy turns to be a permit holder it'll be a real kick in the nuts for the rest of us. This is the kind of press we want to avoid. This is also an example of the type of activity the general public is afraid of.

Keep in mind all of this applies only if the article info is accurate :wink:

edited 1505 hrs to remove a few typos


Last edited by JEM on Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:39 am 
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someone1980 wrote:
sigman wrote:
With so little information put forth, I find it interesting that some of those commenting in the Post Bulletin are already condemning his actions.


Well obviously. He had a gun and could have hurt someone with it. Never mind that getting run over probably hurts. If only there was some statistic that showed which inanimate object killed more people every year.


Remember, dieing at the hands of a killer vehicle (was it an evil SUV?) is much less traumatic and more lawful than dieing at the hands of an evil tool of self defense. :evil:

As far as the BIG 9mm goes, when it comes to promoting a story, a BB gun would be considered synonymous to a multi warhead nuclear cannon by the media.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:41 pm 
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read between the lines............It sounds like one of those new "sniper pistols" capable of shooting down ICBM's

:lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:50 pm 
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One witness seemed to say the man pulled his gun to keep this driver from moving because of all the kids standing around. Hopefully, in this case, 'For the Children' is on our side.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:03 pm 
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If newspaper reporting is to be trusted :evil: , I'm guessing that this guy likely had a permit. There was another article about the fireworks show that mentioned this incident, and another where they stated a person carrying without a permit was arrested.

http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmanager ... 2&a=350579

Based on the county "in detention" list, it looks like the person was either charged with:

1 ASSAULT 2 DEG-FE F

2 TERRORISTIC THREATS-FE F

3 WEAPONS-MS M

or

1 DISORDERLY CONDUCT-MS M

2 ASSAULT 3 DEG-FE F

http://www.co.olmsted.mn.us/courts/dete ... ustody.asp

My guess is the second one, the first is likely the non-permit holder due to the weapons charge...


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:29 pm 
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Now if we could just get the cops out of the speed traps and doughnut shops maybe citizens wouldn't have to do their job for them.

It's getting pretty sad that the only time I see Minneapolis cops anymore is when they're sitting on the side of the road, standing on the curb with their little laser goggles on. While two blocks away there are gang bangers selling crack on the street corner, and this is no bullshit.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:55 pm 
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Inebrius wrote:
Now if we could just get the cops out of the speed traps and doughnut shops maybe citizens wouldn't have to do their job for them.

It's getting pretty sad that the only time I see Minneapolis cops anymore is when they're sitting on the side of the road, standing on the curb with their little laser goggles on. While two blocks away there are gang bangers selling crack on the street corner, and this is no bullshit.


Speeders apparently are considered more of a threat than "gang bangers" to some city officials.
Or is it just the safe route to take to focus on law abiding (for the most part) individuals to achieve revenue for sustenance without life threatening concerns being a part of the job?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:52 pm 
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Let's not drift away from the intial thread.
This can be a serious blow to permit holders if the guy was acting like Dirty Harry and has a permit to carry.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:05 pm 
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I'm not going to duck and run for cover every time some moron with a permit (this is assuming the actor in question is a permit holder) does something stupid. This is not a black eye for me nor is it a serious blow. I didn't do a damn thing.

If this is a permit holder by all means take it away (the permit) and make sure he never gets one again. I wonder however if a case could be made that he feared for his life. A car can be a deadly weapon.

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