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 great sale on CZ 85's 
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 Post subject: great sale on CZ 85's
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:15 am 
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I am not sure if this is proper to post given the caveat about using the forum to sell guns, but I am aware of a dealer that is selling new CZ 85's for $365 delivered to your FFL. This is a distributor's special deal (perhaps Mark can also get this deal..or the staff over at Bill's GS)

e-mail me if you want the dealer information

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 Post subject: Re: great sale on CZ 85's
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:01 am 
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phorvick wrote:
I am not sure if this is proper to post given the caveat about using the forum to sell guns, but I am aware of a dealer that is selling new CZ 85's for $365 delivered to your FFL. This is a distributor's special deal (perhaps Mark can also get this deal..or the staff over at Bill's GS)

e-mail me if you want the dealer information
Thats the distributor's price. Let me know how much I should get above that price. and which one of the CZ 85 are you talking about?

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 Post subject: e-mail from CZ
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:47 pm 
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Quote:
Mark,

I did some research into this. The contact info for the dealer with the low price advertised is below.
We have never sold or shipped anything to them. CZ-USA's lowest current wholesale price is more than their mentioned 3 gun price on the message board. There have been no specials on this gun for at least 2 years. (that's as far back as I researched) We have not sold any of these guns to any dealer or distributor for less than this since our last price increase over a year ago. What's more, CZ-USA has not shipped more than 2 of the 85 B at a time to any dealer or distributor. Assuming that they are selling old stock that was purchased originally by a distributor in 2004 or before, there is less than $10 profit for the distributor and dealer to share.

CZ-USA does not have a MAP policy. Those manufacturers that do have one have a nightmare in enforcing it if they even try.

I hope you will reconcider your decision not to sell CZ-USA products.
Eagle Sports and Tactical

4057 William Penn Hwy

Murrysville, PA 15668

Phone: 724-325-5653

Fax: 724-325-1716

email: sales@eagletactical.com

Website: www.eagletactical.com


Jason Morton
Marketing/Public Relations
CZ-USA
P.O.Box 171073
Kansas City, KS 66117-0073
1-800-955-4486
http//www.cz-usa.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Koscielski [mailto:mpd@usa.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 5:18 PM
To: Jason Morton
Subject: Re: FW: FROM CZ-USA WWW - CZ 85B
Importance: High


By the way, none of my figures even included shipping. Somebody is selling at a loss.

Jason Morton
Marketing/Public Relations
CZ-USA
P.O.Box 171073
Kansas City, KS 66117-0073
1-800-955-4486
http//www.cz-usa.com

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:13 pm 
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Mark,

Are we expected to sell everything at a loss to stay competetive?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:07 pm 
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sigman wrote:
Mark,

Are we expected to sell everything at a loss to stay competetive?
Some would think so. :evil: This is why, if thing keep going the way they are your local gunshop's will be a thing of the past.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:56 am 
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It's tough. As you know better than I do, even at best, there's not a lot of margin on new gun sales. And since the things last, basically, forever, there's always going to be a good, competitive market on used stuff, for those who are willing/able to shop around.

And the big box shops -- Gander Mountain, say -- could wipe the standard gunshops off the map if they decided to make their gun departments break-even bait to get the gun buyers into the store. (Fortunately for gunshop owners, they only do that rarely, when they've got sales.)

I don't have any good answers, or I'd offer them. But one of the not-good-enough answers, I think, is that building a relationship with a custom holster manufacturer (I believe that Kevin of K&D has some with some gun shops) where holster orders get a decent discount and go to the front of the line might help. (Every sale of a carry piece should, I think, mean the sale of an average of at least one holster -- who gets the profit?)

Ammo and cleaning kits; gun boxes; belts (Akers or Galco, plus Wilderness); tactical pants (I love saying "tactical pants"); Thunderwear and/or Smartcarry. With people ready to undercut them, small gunshops can't survive on gun sales; it's the expendable stuff and the accessories, maybe?

Like I said, I dunno -- but look at this discountgunbroker.com guy. He can be happy selling new guns with a margin that a traditional gunshop can't survive on.

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Last edited by joelr on Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:54 am 
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And, the internet is changing the face of the retail industry in ways not imagined just a few years ago. I have one local dealer in my area (defined as within 15 miles of my home). I would love to establish a relationship with them as (a) it is locally owned and (b) there is a convenience factor for sure. I am not a big buyer, but go through maybe 3-4 new to me guns a year; plus, I am able to refer dozens...many dozens...of buyers to them, if I wanted to. And, I don't.

For example, let's say I wanted to get a new Springfield XD9 from a dealer near me. Gander Mtn. in Baxter quoted me a price of $499+tax; but Baxter is about 2 hours away. Sportsman's Warehouse in Fargo is also $499, but is occassionally on sale of $469; but, they can't sell to me without shipping to Scheel's first, and they charge $35, so that brings the price to $504-$534 before tax.

So, I go to galleryofguns.com and get three "local" price quotes. They are from store "A", 15 miles away, $515+tax; store "B", 80 miles away, $447+tax. In each case neither dealer inventories the gun, but it is shipped to them the next day from Davidson's; they have no direct cost to carry the gun, just the few minutes of time to log it in and out etc.

So, I call store "A" and ask them to match store "B" price, since they do not inventory it and will make a few $$ for no work to speak of. I even offer to increase the price from $447 to $475 to offset the travel time and gas to store "B". They refuse, and act arrogant.

OK, what lesson did I learn from this? Well, one lesson is to never recommend our local store to anyone.

I am willing to pay more, marginally more, to a local store, but not $70 more and not when treated arrogantly.

There are more an more on line dealers. They are local too, just not the traditional store front.

If traditional dealers do not recognize the power of the internet and how it is making it easy for consumers to find the best deal, then I don't have much sympathy if they P and M about competition.

People will be buying guns...lots of people and lots of guns. The dealers that survive will adapt to the new marketing opportunities and challenges, or fade away.

I also take exception to dealers that bad mouth places like Gander, Cabellas, Sportsmans Warehouse etc. Calling them "big box" retailers that are taking business away from the locals. Well, last time I checked, our "big boxes" are staffed with locals that are just as entitled to make a buck and have a job as are some other locals that P&M about the competition.

Finally, none of this mini-rant is about Mark. I have not had the good fortune to purchase from him, but he appears to have a strong loyal following and a reputation of honesty and competitive pricing. He is getting caught not in a retail marketing shift, but in the political winds of change in the city of Minneapolis; yet, that is no less devastating to his business. Shame on the City.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:40 am 
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Paul,

I don't have a problem with any competition. I have a loyal customer base that I treat fairly and honestly. I keep my prices low, but I will not sell at a loss to beat another dealer's price. I have never been arrogant with anyone and can understand your displeasure with your local dealer. I wouldn't want you to think that all small dealers treat their customers that way, because we don't. I have made plenty of transfers for internet sales. Many times, I could have saved them money if they would have bought directly from me. The internet is a useful tool for us also and I use it all the time to check inventories and find the best deal for my customers. It is not rare to have wholesaler's prices vary up to $100 on certain firearms. I would not fault anyone for trying to get the best deal anywhere they can. I just don't want them to think that I am trying to rip them off if I can't always match prices. I hope you don't think I am ranting, because I'm not.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:51 am 
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sigman wrote:
Paul,

I don't have a problem with any competition. I have a loyal customer base that I treat fairly and honestly. I keep my prices low, but I will not sell at a loss to beat another dealer's price. I have never been arrogant with anyone and can understand your displeasure with your local dealer. I wouldn't want you to think that all small dealers treat their customers that way, because we don't. I have made plenty of transfers for internet sales. Many times, I could have saved them money if they would have bought directly from me. The internet is a useful tool for us also and I use it all the time to check inventories and find the best deal for my customers. It is not rare to have wholesaler's prices vary up to $100 on certain firearms. I would not fault anyone for trying to get the best deal anywhere they can. I just don't want them to think that I am trying to rip them off if I can't always match prices. I hope you don't think I am ranting, because I'm not.
I am not suggesting that a dealer needs to match any price found "somewhere". Certainly there are numerous variables in the price decision equation, and only the dealer knows what is needed to stay viable.

My gripe really, if you cut through all the dollars issue, is that I expect to get decent professional treatment from a retailer and not be treated like I am bothering them. Perhaps my "rant" is a bit strident because my local dealer refuses to even answer any e-mail inquiries. You can bet that they will get no recommendations from me as a place to consider for handguns.

How hard is it to say.."I am sorry, I can't match that price, but here is what I can do..." rather than the proverbial Felix Unger.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:55 am 
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Honest, I don't think that anybody engaged in this discussion is taking potshots at any of the local-to-anybody dealers.

And I do think that Paul's take is very good advice for any retailer: treat your customers politely, and well, because they can find other retailers more easily than you can find other customers.

My late uncle Ian owned and ran a very successful sandwich shop in Winnipeg. Whenever he brought on a new waitress, he would always explain to her that when the customer ordered, say, a roast beef sandwich and she brought him the roast beef sandwich instead of the corned beef sandwich he really meant, when she apologized, she was to really mean it, as she would have brought him the corned beef sandwich if she'd known.

He lost a fair number of sandwiches over the years, but very few customers, and when he died he left a very successful business to his widow and daughters.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:00 am 
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That said, for reasons I've gone into at length earlier, in the age of the Internet, I don't think a traditional gun shop can survive on gun sales alone or primarily, unless they cater to a clientele that is unusually not-price-sensitive. (Most folks in the gun community are not unusually not-price-sensitive, but if, say, your clientele was mainly or largely well-off suburban professionals, they might very well not care about the difference between paying $25 over wholesale if they have to do some work vs. paying $125 if the gun that they want is right in front of them.)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:33 am 
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I know that Bill's isn't always the lowest price in town, but we're in the unique position to offer range time with every purchase and many of our customers think that's a nice perk. Some could care less (if they live out in the country, for instance, and can do their shooting out the back door)and just want the very lowest out-the-door price.

I try to be as reasonable and polite as I can when customers call to check prices. I completely agree that new gun sales aren't the bread and butter of a gun store. Even if the customer goes elsewhere for their gun, I still hope to see them in to buy range time, ammo, or maybe a CCW class.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:39 am 
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squib_joe wrote:
I know that Bill's isn't always the lowest price in town, but we're in the unique position to offer range time with every purchase and many of our customers think that's a nice perk. Some could care less (if they live out in the country, for instance, and can do their shooting out the back door)and just want the very lowest out-the-door price.

I try to be as reasonable and polite as I can when customers call to check prices. I completely agree that new gun sales aren't the bread and butter of a gun store. Even if the customer goes elsewhere for their gun, I still hope to see them in to buy range time, ammo, or maybe a CCW class.
Sure. If it wouldn't be giving out company secrets, how much are accessories (holsters, gun boxes, etc.) a part of the picture? (If it would be, I'd still be interested in hearing, but would understand that you can't talk about it. :) )

My own theory -- worth what you're paying for it -- is that, just as having a gunsmith on premises is a good thing for a gun shop, so would stocking a lot of holsters (expensive, I know) and having a relationship with a custom holstermaker (not expensive; just take a bit of work).

Again, this is my own hobbyhorse, but I think somebody might want to take it for a ride, sometime. Given that the prices for a good custom holster can be no more (or even sometimes less) than a commercial, mass-manufacture holster, there should be a business opportunity there for somebody with a bricks-and-mortar business.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:57 am 
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As Joel has figured out, we cannot survive on firearm sales alone. Anyone still in business, has other venues to supplement their income. Times have changed and so must the mindset of some business owners. You have to do whatever it takes to make your business attractive to consumers. I sold more muzzleloaders last year than traditional firearms, due to the new all season buck license. I also try and stock accessories for them. Word travels fast.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:58 am 
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joelr wrote:
how much are accessories (holsters, gun boxes, etc.) a part of the picture? (If it would be, I'd still be interested in hearing, but would understand that you can't talk about it. :) )


Margins are better on accessories and ammo, and it's well over a quarter of what we sell .. probably closer to a third.

joelr wrote:
stocking a lot of holsters (expensive, I know) and having a relationship with a custom holstermaker (not expensive; just take a bit of work).


A $75 holster can be a hard sell ... nevermind a $250 custom rig. A lot of people (aside from most of you forum members) have never used a well broken-in quality holster, and they don't come that way from the factory!

The other problem with selling good leather, from what I've experienced, is delivery. Most of the larger makers, aside from Bianchi, are taking forever to fill their orders.


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