Not to pick on anyone, but it is not sufficient to only gunproof your kids nor to only kidproof your guns.

First of all, little kids surprise you with new skills all the time. A new ability to climb, reason or use tools could result in tragedy with an improperly stored gun.

And in the pre-teen and teen years, peer pressure, hormones, inexperience and simple poor judgement could likewise result in disaster.

Belt and suspenders, people. Lock up your guns, and teach your kids.

There are plently of affordable and convenient solutions that can mitigate risk and still keep your firearms safe and available. Use them. Do your kids deserve any less?

We re-evaluate our storage methods on a pretty regular basis as the situation changes and developes.

Andrew, I think this verys depending on where you live. My relatives live in town and keep all their guns in the new federally approved food provision location (under the bed!) and they keep them unloaded. But then they have neighbors less the 50' away on either side of their house (probably more like 25' or less) It is roughly a quarter mile to our nearest neighbor. The barn is about 150 yards from the house. In the event of a home invasion (not really that far fetched we are located in the exurbs) - if the perps paid the house payment, they could live here forever! or at least until the annual MostlyLawabidingCitizen Giant Easter Egg Hunt!

When I was a kid, dad (a cop) kept his pistol in his dresser - loaded. My farm relatives kept the guns in the mud room in the standard pine gun rack with shells immediately underneath. I'm looking for one of these same standard pine gun racks as a decoy for our house to hang the typicall shotgun and 30-30 on. All the other guns will be stategically located "around" the house in the event an "issue" arrises. When we have visitors I have a habbit of of putting tigger locks on everything not on my person - because our kids know but others don't teach their kids (and for when we go on vacation).

I must admit, I'm not confident in how we will handle this as the kids reach their teen years. I think alot of that will depend on how they demonstrate their gun handling safety and values as we go hunting as a family, and at various shooting activities. The wife wants to get into Mounted Cowboy Action Shooting - The kids can actively participate in this at their current age. But as usual, this is each families dececision to make regarding THEIR situation and their kids.

Then again maybe I just yearn for the days of my youth. Bike riding out to the quaries with a cased shotgun, 22, or bbgun held across the bikes handle bars.

MUST GET AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER! IT IS BEAUTIFUL OUT! PUT THE MOUSE DOWN! AND STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER!


Mostly-

It still sounds like you think gunproofing your kids is sufficient.

Many sad parents have found out that it is not. Please don't join them.

With all respect Andrew - and that is a lot - I enjoy reading your posts and they are well though out respectable positions - this one is no different. We just disagree.



Indeed you are correct, these are my thoughts.



Show them to me. The various stats (I've seen) don't back this up, once you factor out some of the givens like gang bangers, drug dealers and users, and your run of the mill criminal who grew up with criminal parents and criminal friends. Generally this is fairly infrequent. This is not being mocking when I ask: Do you lock up your cutlerly? Do you cover you 5 gallon buckets?
see
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/urdel.pdf
pg 18 states


Now this doesn't say it won't happen but in general. We follow this same logic with candy in our house. We have candy available at all times. Our kids take a couple after asking and they are set. The relatives kids come over and they stand at the dish like calfs at the feed trough, then when told to leave it alone, they sneek it. There are incidences where this logic has failed (columbine, Cold Spring, etc.) but in general this is backed up on page 18. Number of gun crimes by legal gun owners mirrors the number by Permit holders - pretty low risk - NOT zero (even though the report says this - we know better) but pretty low risk.

Mostly-

In 2002 there were 113 kids (under 18) killed in gun accidents. That's a low number, really, in a country of 300 million people -- in fact, it's less than 1.5% of child injury deaths -- and it's lower than bicycles, poison, drowning and especially motor vehicles, but it's still 113 too many.

The notion that teaching kids is sufficient is simply wrong. It may work much of the time for many children, but it's not good enough.

And, yes, we have a 2- and a 4-year-old, and we have safeguarded against as many hazards as practical. My daughter's bookshelf is strapped to the wall, for example. She knows better than to climb the shelves, and so far she hasn't tried. But I'm not trusting it to fate or her judgement.

I've seen and heard of too many damn irrational things that kids have done. When asked why, they get a blank look. They don't know: The impulse seemed like a good idea at the time.

And that's little wonder: Brain researchers tell us that the frontal lobe, responsible for executive decision-making, isn't fully developed until the age of 18 to 20.

No, I haven't forbidden them to touch the safe. The older one has lost interest as soon as I told him what it was, the younger one gave up eventually.

They are allowed to touch anything they want provided they ask first. The little radish learned a pretty good lesson about that when he put his hand on a Mosin I was cleaning and got a hard pinch from the cocking piece.

As an experiment I've had a rifle (unloaded, of course, and quintuple-checked) sitting in the corner of the living room for a few days. Neither one of the kids paid it the slightest attention.

Now, none of this means I have guns laying about and accessible. I have a couple of quick access lockboxes. One holds the house pistol, the other is where I put my carry piece when it is not on me. That one is in the bedroom.

Now, as to uncomfortable questions, one was related to that. I was putting the boys to bed and the older one asked why I have the gun on me. I explained that I haven't been to the bedroom yet and didn't have a chance to put it away and guns are something that must always be put in the proper place. I also told him that I do trust him, but his brother is a bit young to know better and he might think it's a toy. He said "oh, ok" and went to bed.

They have a couple of toy AR's that they play with on and off. There are three rules they must follow if they want to keep playing with them. One, they must be kept in the proper spot, which happens to be top of a bookcase. They can get them any time they want, but they are not allowed to point them at anyone not in the game, not allowed to hit anyone or anything with them and they must put them away when done. That last one is important. Toy guns are separate from other toys and must be put in the proper place. Other toys can wait until after dinner, but guns must not be left laying about. We're not yet at the four rules stage, but will be soon.

One more cute story. I walked in from work, had my 1911 in my belt. Little Radish says - "Daddy's got a gun for hunting". Mrs. Radish says "That's not really a hunting gun." "Sure it is. Daddy hunts paper with it. "

For the life of me I can't remember telling him that...

That's pretty much what I was thinking re: one long discussion like a class. That's pretty much how the question came up and I thought it was slightly different from the others I've read here. I wasn't asking all of those as single questions but rather a series of questions related to safety in the home.

I read about several of these subjects in seperate threads but was treating it like a discussion. Sorry if I stepped on any toes.

note to Phorvick and old_dude: Thanks for the hospitality. Phorvik: It was nice to be able to shoot several guns in the caliber I was looking at. They each had their own strengths and weaknesses, but I'm still smitten with that XD for some un natural reason.

Please cite your source, so I may review it. These have a tendancy to include drug dealers, suicides (they ARE NOT victums!), and "while in the process of a crime" numbers. While it may be valid to argue that these are still deaths - one has to question if the deaths were maybe a GOOD thing and if they had been prevented may have had a detrimental affect on the future.


Didn't seem to be much of a problem in the past... Why is this suddenly valid?
Please see
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1816


Andrew, - as soon as you start defining how many is too many you are on a slippery slope - you may want to consider why YOU own guns, and why YOU keep them in your house. By simply removing all guns from your house - you may theoretically remove all risk of gun injury, but you know this is not possible. But also please ponder the risks of your view, are you going to appreciate the safe as much as one perp is raping your wife, while you and your children are watching, with one of your own guns at the back of your head. They have your gun as they forced you to open the safe by threating your wife with a knife at her neck.


In your opinion! Training has increased since I was a teenager, and yet incidents climb (dropped last 10 years or so). When I was a young child I didn't get the training my kids get and yet I didn't shoot anyone, I don't know any kids in my age who shot anyone. I don't know any kids in my age who were shot. We all had access to guns - trigger locks did not exist yet and Gun Safes had glass doors! And yet I'm assuming our frontal lobe developement was on course with todays children. One could easily argue more training is a bad thing - but we know better then that.

Did you grow up with guns? Both my wife and I did. I spoke with her about these posts and we are both in 100% argreement that we are following a path which we both belive in. We may change our minds in the future as it presents itself but for the time this works for us. My intention is not to change your mind, but to speak to what has worked for us such that each can ponder their circumstances and the risk they choose to accept, along with the responsibility.

Take care.

Mostly-

Sorry. You're right -- I should always cite sources. The 113 number is from the CDC's WISQARS reporting engine for 2002 at http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html

Accidents are distinguished in these stats from homicides.

Since I added this stat to my class PowerPoint, the 2003 numbers were posted, and 102 kids were killed in firearm accidents. That's a step in the right direction!



I'm not sure of the relevance of that article.



Naw, that's an easy one. One accidental gun death is too many.



That doesn't follow at all. The NRA has a simple firearm rule: STORE FIREARMS SO THAT THEY ARE INACCESIBLE TO UNAUTHORIZED PERSONS.

That's what I do.





You present a false dichotomy: the premise that either you leave guns accesible to your kids or inaccessible to yourself.

The gun in a holster is certainly available to me and me only, as is the one (or dozen) in fast-access safes.



And validated by studies. They're not hard to find.


Cite?


The current rate is about one kid per 700,000 killed in a firearm accidents. At that rate, or lower, it's not surprisinfg that neither of us knows such a victim.



I didn't grow up with guns.

You see me as too cautious, but if you're wrong, someone dies. If I'm wrong, I may have wasted $100 on a GunVault.

I prefer my downside.

I will say that I have burned myself by buying guns on a whim. Just remember the old adage, haste makes waste. All of the advice given is really good.

Nice cite, I've book marked that one.


just citing someone else who shares my view. I'm sure you can post many who support your view.



And the Brady bunch says all guns are bad and are likely to go off at any time... There are studies that eggs are bad for you and ones that say eggs are good for you. What drove you to elect to follow the NRA's view instead of the Brady bunches? I have questions regarding many of the NRA's stances. My point is not to convert you nor anyone else to my perspective, but to offer MY view. Take it or leave it, your milage may very.



And validated by studies. They're not hard to find.
[/quote]
As in the bible, a study or verse can be found to validate most any postion.



My appologies! My intent was not to judge you in any manner (even if my words did) But I believe

is highly incindinary, and has no validity as there is no way you can possibly back up the claim that my failure to secure my arms in a manner in which you approve of will result in someone dying and I don't believe that was your intent, as mine was not to insinuate that by locking your guns up will subject you to a home invasion.

To individual who started this thread, as you can see there are many shades of gray (and lots of passion) in the manner in which you store your arms. Andrew has a method which works for him, and our family has a method which works for us. Our method is not approved by the NRA (nor Andrew) and his method is not approved by the Brady Bunch. I encourage you ponder the issue deeply and continually as your views may change as you progress through life. Alternatively you can outsource your decision to an external entity and trust they aims are nobel.

Mostly-

Andrew this was interesting, and I hope that neither of us will ever be forced to regret our personal decision, but allas I belive we must simply agree to disagree.

Andrew, just wondering if there is anyway to find out how to break out Mostlylawabidingcitizen's comments that "These have a tendancy to include drug dealers, suicides (they ARE NOT victums!)", as well as 14 to 18 year old gangbangers.

Sure, look at the CDC web site. The "accident" category, as I mentioned, is separate from noth homicides and suicides, and includes only deaths ruled accidents.


2003, all ages:
Total gunshot deaths: 30,136
------
Gunshot Suicide deaths: 16,907
Gunshot Homicide deaths: 11,920
Gunshot Accidental deaths: 730
Gunshot "Legal Intervention" deaths: 347
Gunshot unknown intent deaths: 232

2003, 0-17 years old:
2003, all ages:
Total gunshot deaths: 1317
------
Gunshot Suicide deaths: 377
Gunshot Homicide deaths: 805
Gunshot Accidental deaths: 102
Gunshot "Legal Intervention" deaths: 8
Gunshot unknown intent deaths: 25


When I said there were 102 accidental kid deaths from gunshots, that's what I meant. I wasn't even bringing in the issue of suicide, homicide or bangers getting shot by cops.

I was curious so I looked it up.

from
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
in 2000 (latest available)
Pop = 281,421,906
25.7% < 18 = 72,325,429 kids

In case anyone else was wondering

Mostly-