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 Brand of Press 
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 Post subject: Brand of Press
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:40 am 
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I don't want to start a brand bashing thread, and I will not participate in one if this thread goes that way but:

Right now I'm using a Lee 4 station turret press. For my needs it's fine.
Not ideal, but it reloads fast enought for me most of the time, and is pretty inexpensive to change calibers- can add a caliber for less than $10, not including the dies, which I'd need regardless.

Anyway, I'm thinking of upgrading to a progressive setup when I re do my reloading bench. Lee has a couple of progressives, and they are relatively inexpensive. On other boards I've read in the past, there is a lot of brand bashing, and Lee gets more than it's share.

I've heard nothing but praise for Dillon, but they are at the higher end of the price spectrum. They may well be worth it, but I've no experience.

So who out there does progressive? What do you like about your setup, and what don't you like.

All opinions welcomed.

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 Post subject: Re: Brand of Press
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:18 am 
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Brewman wrote:
So who out there does progressive? What do you like about your setup, and what don't you like.


I use a Dillon Square Deal B. I bought it from John Walton @ the Gunstop, he told me when I was looking for a press that (and I'm paraphrasing) "I'll sell you anything you want, I sell them all, but eventually most people end up with a Dillon. They just WORK."

So far, he's right. I bought it with 45 ACP dies and added a 10mm/.40 conversion set, and just recently added a .44 Mag/Spl conversion. I've loaded 4-5000 rounds (based on the 4 empty lb powder cannisters and the half-empty 4 lb cannister) of 10mm and 45 ACP without any problems. The powder measure is consistent as are the seat and crimp dies. No primer feed problems and it's not terribly difficult to switch calibers if you buy spare toolheads. Haven't changed out the priming system from large/small so I can't comment on that aspect of it, but it appears pretty easy.

The SDB is pistol only and uses SDB-specific die sets, which some people see as a liability. I don't load for any rifles (only one I own is a .22LR) and don't really plan to, so that really doesn't bother me. The proprietary die sets don't bother me either, since they're guaranteed to work in this press.

But since I'm a critic, I do have some gripes, although they're kind of minor:

* A lot of the adjustment/fastener clearances are too small. Removing/adjusting can be an occasionally frustrating experience due to the lack of space to either fit a wrench or move it more than a tenth of a turn before having to move it again. The good news is that you really only deal with many of these when installing a new die/toolhead combo.

An improvement would be putting allen key sockets in the heads of the die adjustment bolts in the toolhead. I'd also like to see some tick marks on the die adjustment bolts and the top of the toolhead; it might make some of the adjustments easier or more repeatable. I mark some of them with a marker, but it's just a crude reference to count revolutions.

* Decapped primer cup design is pretty weak; I Dremeled mine and improved the catch rate to more like 95%, but I still end up with a mess under the press after 1000 rounds.

* There's too much overlap between the caliber conversion kits and the toolhead parts. If you want a quick conversion between .38/357, .44Mag/Spl, etc you really need to buy TWO of the same caliber conversions and two toolheads instead of just two toolheads. Otherwise expect to waste a half an hour re-setting every die except the sizing die when switching between these types of calibers. IMHO, you should be able to buy some of the overlap parts that stay in the toolhead individually (crimp adjustment bolt, seating die) vs. a complete extra conversion kit.

* The documentation is...daunting? Oblique? I made it work, but stuff like doing caliber conversions is text-only documentation with parts referred to by the parts diagram numbers. Not user friendly, and the crimp die setup is not real helpful, especially with roll crimps. I got mildly burned on this with 10mm (not enough) and .44 Special (perhaps too much; my cases are real hard to eject from the cylinder).

* There's apparently no primer seat adjustment. This is good since you don't have to worry about it, bad if you get light primer strikes and would like to try moving the primers out a few .001s. I had to switch to Federal primers for my Glock 29 to fire consistently; Wnchester primers had too many light strikes that may have been cured if the primer seat depth could have been adjusted.

I would still buy this press again. For what it does and its relatively easy use and adjustement, it's a terriffic value. I haven't had to use Dillon's technical support/warranty, but apparently it's excellent.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:25 pm 
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I can't comment on progressives -- the political kind I can, but not here -- because I decided to use a turret press, and bought an RCBS, so that's all I'm familiar with. It works fine, and the company is great about just sending you a part, promptly, if you have a problem.

I have a friend with a Dillon progressive who likes it a lot. He says Dillon is great about parts, too.

My only problem has been that the RCBS owner's manual is less than clear. In fact, I could not make out what the hell they were getting at some of the time. The problem may stem from the company thinking that you already know all this stuff, so they're just reminding you. (Fortunately, John was just a phone call away, and could explain things to me.)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:45 pm 
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I think maybe the lack of clarity on reloading equipment manuals is an industry wide issue. The manuals that came with my Lee turret press and powder dispenser left a lot to be desired.
They do a great job on their bullet mold instructions, but not so great on presses, powder measures, and dies.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:10 pm 
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I'm always amazed at the lack of published crimp information. I don't know how it would apply to rifles, but for straight-walled pistol and especially taper-crimped pistol cartridges there really does seem to be a standard that manufacturers follow.

When I setup my 10mm dies, the Dillon docs were something along the lines of "tighten until you feel some resistance, push up the handle and then turn another 1/4 to 1/2 turn and you're done." WTF!?? Every other measure in reloading is done to fantastically tiny (if not obsolete) units of measure -- tenths of a grain, thousandths of an inch and this one is "until you feel resistance, and then turn some more"!?

The setting worked in my S&W 1006 and 1066, but my Glock 29 with KKM barrel gave me tons of feed and ejection problems. I took my calipers to a couple of different factory cartridges and my own loaded ammo and lo and behold, I was too big by .005, and the commercial stuff was all the same within .001 -- too close to not match a standard. One I adjusted the crimp to match factory specs, the Glock runs like a top.

Anyway, crimp seems too important to leave to guesswork -- too much crimp and you risk serious pressure spikes, too little and your ammo can fall apart.

I'm kind of in the same situation with my .44 Special loads right now; I have no idea what the right crimp is, but I think mine is way too tight as my cases really stick when ejecting, which means they're expanding too much when firing due to pressures, even though the load is quite low.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:23 pm 
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I have been using a Dillon 550B. Easy to set up and accurate.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:27 pm 
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I have three presses, A Dillon Square Deal B, which loads 45 ACP exclusively, an RCBS Rock Chucker for all my rifle calibers and a lightweight Lee "c" press that I take to the range with me to work up loads with.
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While I think Dillon is the top of the line, you won't catch me bashing Lee. Lee makes a good product at reasonable prices.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:40 pm 
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One other criticism of the RCBS, although it may apply to all brands: There is often no access to the set screw on the lock collar without turning the whole thing around so I can get at it with the Allen wrench.

In other woirds, if I were to get lucky, the collar would lock up with the set screw facing outwards, where I can get at it. Bbut that never seems to happen, so I have to grip the whole die and collar tightly and rotate it to where I can get at it. There oughta be a better way.

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 Post subject: Reloading Presses
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:35 pm 
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I bought a Dillon 650 10 years ago and have never regretted buying it versus the Dillon 550. It was well worth the extra money because it offers several options you do not have with the smaller presses.

The first thing I added was the automatic case feed. I loaded with the press once, and then bought the automatic case feed. The press is so fast; loading the brass in the feed tube 25 to 50 at a time was way too slow. Well worth the $100 at the time.

The next big advantage over their other presses is it offers two additional die positions in the die head. I use a powder check in one and a separate crimp die and bullet seating die. (I use a "Lee Factory Crimp" die. It does the best job to give a consistent crimp on cases that may vary slightly in length.) Even though I look directly at the cases after the powder is dropped I have had 2 squibs before I bought the powder check station (cost was $40, well spent money), none since. I have caught a few squibs and double charges with it. These miss charges have always happened after some other problem loading. (Like a 40 SW case inside a 45 ACP case that gets into the de-capping die.)

I cannot remember ever resetting the powder measure after checking it when setting up for that reloading session. You can remove the die heads to change calibers in seconds. Everything remains set. Changing the case plate is also a few seconds.

Bad things; cost (although after using one you will never go back to another press and forget about what you paid for this one); changing from large to small primers or vice versa (way too hard, probably 10 to 15 minutes); loading the primer tubes (This is a hand job that takes time. I usually have 10 or so tubes loaded at a time. I have seen a Dillon primer tube loader for $250 or one in Midway for $40. I haven’t tried either but will buy the Midway one and try it the next time I load.)

I have die heads set-up for 45ACP, 40 SW, 223 and 308. I don’t load much rifle lately.

I mainly use it for 45 ACP now. I typically load 5,000 to 10,000 rounds at a time (6 to 9 month supply) over several evenings. With primer tubes ready I can easily load 500 to 600 rounds an hour. I have loaded 750 an hour but get tired at that rate. If you had someone filling the primer tubes, keeping the case feeder full and bullets ready, I think you could load 1,000 and hour. Your arm would get tired.

I have several IPSIC & IDPA friends and the vast majority use the Dillon 650. I only know of one that uses the Dillon 1050. I know one commercial reloader that has 650’s set-up for each caliber he loads. He has used them for years.

I have had one part break. I called them; they sent a new part no charge and had it in a couple days. They said that they have re-designed the part to prevent that problem.

I also use the little Lee C-frame press. Love it, light, cheap works for pistol and small rifle and can take it to the range (which is really not an advantage for me since I have a 100 yard range at home). I have an old Herter’s O-frame press for my larger rifle calibers. Very rigid but heavy press.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading Presses
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:03 pm 
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westhope wrote:
I bought a Dillon 650 10 years ago and have never regretted buying it versus the Dillon 550. It was well worth the extra money because it offers several options you do not have with the smaller presses.


(rest snipped to save space)

Wow, 5-10k rounds at a time is some serious loading.

I'm suprised at how well even my SDB keeps powder settings -- I last loaded 8.1 gr Power Pistol in 10mm a month or so ago, and this weekend I added a new toolhead and die set for .44 Special. After BSing around for an hour setting up the new dies, which involved removing and re-adding the powder measure about a dozen times, I finally ended up using a Power Pistol load for .44 Special. My first measure was identical to my last 10mm measure, despite all the on/off. I still check the powder measure every time I load, even if it is the next day, though.

Loading primer tubes IS a PITA and my major obstacle to more than 300/hr. I'm deeply tempted to try the Midway machine for what it costs, although the reviews are kind of love/hate. The Dillon machine looks a lot nicer, but is REAL spendy, although I think Dillon would support it well.

Have you ever been tempted by some of the automatic bullet feeders? They aren't made by Dillon, but with one of those and an automatic primer tube filler, I'll bet you could do over 1000 an hour easily.

Quote:
although after using one you will never go back to another press and forget about what you paid for this one


What's the line? The disappointment of poor quality lingers long after the excitement of a good price as disappeared? Buy good stuff and you really forget about what it cost.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:06 am 
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Another vote for Dillon reloaders. After all, who can argue against a company that has nice looking ladies on the covers of their monthly magazines? HA! I just have to get my wife on the cover at some point to show America what a real beutiful lady looks like...
Seriously, I have a Dillon SDB and a Dillon 550B. I was going back and forth 650 or 550. I'm glad I picked up the 550. I like the simple operation and VERY quick caliber changes in that machine. It seems the more automization that is put into something, the more complicated it becomes. I thought the manual indexing of the 550 would really stink, but truth be told, it hasn't bothered me at all.
I load only pistol rounds. I have 3 calibers for the 550B and it is a GREAT machine.

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 Post subject: Press Brands
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:13 pm 
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I found the following information on the brand of reloading presses the shooters at the 2005 IDPA National Championships used:

Dillon 160
Hornady 6
Lee 4
Lyman 1
RCBs 5


The Dillon models were:

1050 15
650 50
550 72
Square Deal 18
Not Specified 5

The IPSIC / USPSA championships also report on equipment used but I couldn'd find that issue. Dillon is represented in similar numbers by what I remember, by far the most popular brand.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:42 pm 
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There is NOTHING wrong with Lee stuff - GREAT way to get started and to learn with and there are some tools that I use everyday that are LEE and I have been loading for 22 years.

I have 2 RCBS Rock Chuckers - a RCBS GREEN MACHINE - yeah thats right - and it works too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A LYMAN All American

And best of all a Dillon 650 with the case feeder and conversions for 4 different calibers. I normally can load about 1000/hour when all of my tubes are filled and I am feeling spunky and loading 45 or 40 (9 is a PITA to load with mixed brass)

I have found all of teh lee stuff that I have bought to be of the FINEST quality and those are the dies that I use even in the Dillon - ESPECIALLY the carbide factory Crimp Die - it is the best investment that you can make

I load precision 308 on a Rock Chucker guess what - Using Lee Dies.

I will never bash Lee - ever - the vast majority of their stuff cannot be beat for any price.

HOWEVER - when you want to reload a ton of ammo FAST - nothing and I mena nothing beats a Dillon 650 (well maybe the 1050 but that is nearly 2X the $$$$$$$$$ and Caliber conversions are more than 2X the cost as well.)

I will gladly teach anyone out there that wishes to learn to reload I am sure that I could arrange somehting.


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