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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 3:35 pm 
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joelr wrote:
mrokern wrote:
Rude is rude. Not that it isn't called for from time to time, but if you spank for an honest mistake, you're just forming a clique. We don't need that.
Surprisingly, I agree.

One ongoing irritation for me -- I'm not sure it's a problem for anybody else, but I purely hate it -- is the inadequate instructors who do a lousy job and then send their students here for support.

I want those instructors to either do their own damn work, give it up, or be repeatedly embarrassed when they do that.

So, J. Random Newbie takes a class and then comes here and asks, "Hey, do I apply for my permit at my sheriff's or at the PD?" or "I read on the intertubes that I can't carry in a bank?" or "I've got the Florida permit; will that let me carry in Florida?" (and no, I'm not making any of those questions up), if his question is answered politely without the usual "And your instructor was whom . . . ?" being answered, we'll probably never hear which instructor, yet again, screwed up. (We just had one of those recently.)

(And, yes, Paul, I know that one such question doesn't mean the guy had a bad instructor -- the student could have missed it or a good instructor could have had a bad day, or whatever -- and it's entirely possible that the answer, at some point, will be that it's me. I got that, honest.)

Which is why I insist on all newbie first questions getting the "Who was your permit instructor?" thing, with as little impoliteness as will get the job done.

If I'm wrong on that, and I may well be -- it could be that I've got wrong priorities, and, let's face it, I'm not easy to persuade when I've thought about something and taken a position -- what can be done to either get the job done and keep me moderately happy, or persuade me that, hey, it's not a big deal?


I'm 100% on board with that. I'm more cautioning against exposing a first timer to the full blast of what can occur around here when someone comes in with foot-in-mouth disease (aka whoopsie on the FAQ, or rules, or searching). A polite word goes much further than sending them scurrying back to lurking. After all, if we only hear our own voices, we aren't exactly in favor of bringing more opinions and viewpoints into the fold.

Note that I'm not referring to the "head-in-ass" disease. Different problem. Different solution. :lol:

-Mark


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 5:34 pm 
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As my wife says, I got nothing good to say and I can't/refuse to STFU.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 6:36 pm 
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1911fan wrote:
As my wife says, I got nothing good to say and I can't/refuse to STFU.
Cool. I'd like more details, if you don't mind. Contrary to . . . some belief, disagreeing with me, if you are, isn't merely permitted here, but encouraged.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 8:02 pm 
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<< forum sociology >>

Yes, there are people who study it. There is one person I know who wrote a masters thesis on behavior in on-line communities. And I've been interviewed by other researchers claiming to study such things on a couple of occasions. There are websites, such as the Meatball Wiki, and the Great Circle mailing list (which is probably defunct by now), that have and are discussing such matters.

In general, forums behave differently depending on the extent people know each other in real life and the extent of commitment to a shared cause.

<< post counts >>

Post counts don't mean much here or anywhere else. There are some people who develop a habit of posting their thoughts or opinions on nearly every topic, who therefore have high post counts. There are people who only post carefully written, thoughtful posts about topics where they really have something to add. Both serve a purpose.

<< bad instructors and nooobs >>

I am involved in, among other things, music instruction. One of the most frustrating things music teachers at the upper echelons have to deal with is that they are evaluated on the quality of their student's performances in recital and in concert. And there are a certain number of students who, despite showing promise, don't become high achievers even with the best instruction. Programs with weaker admission standards have more trouble with this, as one might expect.

Carrying a pistol without getting into trouble of one kind or another doesn't require nearly the aptitude, commitment, instruction, etc., as playing in an orchestra but nonetheless there are a certain number of people who aren't going to be able to navigate no matter what.


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 8:44 pm 
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joelr wrote:
1911fan wrote:
As my wife says, I got nothing good to say and I can't/refuse to STFU.
Cool. I'd like more details, if you don't mind. Contrary to . . . some belief, disagreeing with me, if you are, isn't merely permitted here, but encouraged.


I was merely responding as did Dean n Mall Cop about being here with a moderately high post count.


Joel, we may disagree on small things, but we are both from the same book, it just might be different pages at times. That said, the comment was just about me talking here with a high post count.


RE the guys who call you or post here. Frankly, the ones that post here might be tiresome at times, but they are striving to do it right, and are trying to find a seat of knowledge that is trustworthy and competent. Most of us have been around this now for some 8 or more years, and the little details we roll our eyes at might be brand new and confusing to some who only recently decided to come join our side.


I coached youth hockey for 19 years. Every year when the new mini mites (first time skaters) were getting ready to hit the ice (literally and figuratively) the associations would require all the coaches from the association to be on hand to hand walk every parent and every skater thru the ritual of lacing up. From cup to helmet, we all were assigned one skater to show them the ropes, plus, we gave those parents our phone numbers and assured them that we were more than willing to field calls about any thing hockey related.

Guns and shooting are a lot more complicated, and people are often unsure of where to go for advice and training.


Joel, you wrote the book, your in the phone book, thus you are going to get some wacky calls. I would take it as grand statement on how well and influential your book has become.


I am lucky enough that I get to train people general gun handling, and try to lead them up to where they are comfy taking the Permit classes. I am also always available to those here and on another local site where people are getting started and need either reassurance or guidance on where to go next. So far thirty some odd of my trainees have gone on to take permit classes or decide that guns are not their answer. I find that a hard thing to take, but some have just said "that's not me" and I have to accept that.

IF answering nit wit questions is getting to you, take some time off, simply say "I am sorry, right now is not a good time, but Dean, or Paul or Roger or myself would be able to talk to you about this and here is their Email, they will get back to you soon. "

Believe me, When i train, i often have to field questions from relatives or SO's which just blow my mind. The constant fear that a "gun just fires itself in the night" or "they are just goiing to take it away and use it on her or him" or the best, "I am his mother, and I forbid him from talking to you or using a gun". (Mother was at least 70 and he was at least 45)

but to you Joel let's try this, every time you tired of the forum and its members, take out that new snubby and stroke and say (ala Sally Fields) they like me, they really really like me...... :P

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:51 am 
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1911fan wrote:
joelr wrote:
1911fan wrote:
As my wife says, I got nothing good to say and I can't/refuse to STFU.
Cool. I'd like more details, if you don't mind. Contrary to . . . some belief, disagreeing with me, if you are, isn't merely permitted here, but encouraged.


I was merely responding as did Dean n Mall Cop about being here with a moderately high post count.


Joel, we may disagree on small things, but we are both from the same book, it just might be different pages at times. That said, the comment was just about me talking here with a high post count.
In my social circle, the quantum of interaction appears to be the disagreement. Obviously not a problem.
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RE the guys who call you or post here. Frankly, the ones that post here might be tiresome at times, but they are striving to do it right, and are trying to find a seat of knowledge that is trustworthy and competent. Most of us have been around this now for some 8 or more years, and the little details we roll our eyes at might be brand new and confusing to some who only recently decided to come join our side.
A very good point, and one that, out of irritation, I'm far too prone to overlook at any given moment.
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I coached youth hockey for 19 years. Every year when the new mini mites (first time skaters) were getting ready to hit the ice (literally and figuratively) the associations would require all the coaches from the association to be on hand to hand walk every parent and every skater thru the ritual of lacing up. From cup to helmet, we all were assigned one skater to show them the ropes, plus, we gave those parents our phone numbers and assured them that we were more than willing to field calls about any thing hockey related.

Guns and shooting are a lot more complicated, and people are often unsure of where to go for advice and training.


Joel, you wrote the book, your in the phone book, thus you are going to get some wacky calls. I would take it as grand statement on how well and influential your book has become.
Sure. I get benefits from my website being, pretty consistently, the top Google hits (today it's the top two; I just checked) for "carry permit training MN". And there are some downsides to that, which I try to bear with at least some grace. What I get increasingly impatient with is the attitude of, roughly, "well, since I found you on the Internet real easy, you get the honor of solving my problem for me," and I've never been terribly patient with, "my instructor said that I should call you with questions."
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I am lucky enough that I get to train people general gun handling, and try to lead them up to where they are comfy taking the Permit classes. I am also always available to those here and on another local site where people are getting started and need either reassurance or guidance on where to go next. So far thirty some odd of my trainees have gone on to take permit classes or decide that guns are not their answer. I find that a hard thing to take, but some have just said "that's not me" and I have to accept that.

IF answering nit wit questions is getting to you, take some time off, simply say "I am sorry, right now is not a good time, but Dean, or Paul or Roger or myself would be able to talk to you about this and here is their Email, they will get back to you soon. "
I think the folks who -- like you, Dean, Paul and others -- who leap to offer a welcoming hand to new Forum members perform a very important service to the community, and I don't think I publicly acknowledge that near enough; I'll try to do better on that.
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Believe me, When i train, i often have to field questions from relatives or SO's which just blow my mind. The constant fear that a "gun just fires itself in the night" or "they are just goiing to take it away and use it on her or him" or the best, "I am his mother, and I forbid him from talking to you or using a gun". (Mother was at least 70 and he was at least 45)

but to you Joel let's try this, every time you tired of the forum and its members, take out that new snubby and stroke and say (ala Sally Fields) they like me, they really really like me...... :P
I'm still shocked by that whole thing -- and by the very nice folks who have been hitting the tip jar before and more often since. (I'm not saying that words are insincere -- the thanks I get here, frequently, are very gratifying.)

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:47 am 
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Here's an idea- maybe we could set up a "Beginner's Corner" or such category. Not to segregate new folks, but as a place where Pete and Paul (and I, or anyone else around here) can provide a little mentoring, while keeping some of the repetitive stuff more contained.

Just an idea.

:)

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:00 am 
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Jeremiah wrote:
Here's an idea- maybe we could set up a "Beginner's Corner" or such category. Not to segregate new folks, but as a place where Pete and Paul (and I, or anyone else around here) can provide a little mentoring, while keeping some of the repetitive stuff more contained.

Just an idea.

:)
Done. I think it's a great idea.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:04 am 
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I see I've been made a mod of the area. Serves me right for coming up with "ideas"... :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:12 am 
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Yup. Now, pace Bill Mauldin, "I need a guy what don't owe me no money for a little routine patrol . . . "

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:36 am 
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joelr wrote:
Yup. Now, pace Bill Mauldin, "I need a guy what don't owe me no money for a little routine patrol . . . "


Is it sad that my first introduction to Mauldin came via Snoopy's annual visits?


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:47 am 
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mrokern wrote:
joelr wrote:
Yup. Now, pace Bill Mauldin, "I need a guy what don't owe me no money for a little routine patrol . . . "


Is it sad that my first introduction to Mauldin came via Snoopy's annual visits?
Not at all. All roads that lead to good places are happy roads . . . and I think my own first introduction was an earlier Peanuts cartoon, anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:28 pm 
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Rudeness is not good, which is why I strive for mere annoyance :twisted:

;)


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:34 am 
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I thought I'd chime in here to give perspective from someone who is sorta new to the board, sorta new to MN and doesn't really post much here.
1. I took Joel's class. It answered the majority of my questions about the law in MN.
2. I read Joel's book (hey, it came with the class!) that answered the questions I had that weren't covered in the class.
3. There are POV's here where I agree completely and POV's where I disagree completely. It doesn't serve much to be another voice in the crowd in agreement with everyone else. It doesn't serve me much to defend a perspective I hold to people I don't know and will likely never meet.

In short, my perception is that I don't have much to add other than to stir the pot on issues where the consensus has ruled. So I STFU and read what interests me.


Last edited by trob09 on Tue May 12, 2009 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:18 pm 
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Jeremiah wrote:
I see I've been made a mod of the area. Serves me right for coming up with "ideas"... :wink:


That'll learn ya

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