BART Police Shoot unarmed handcuffed man in the back
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ironbear
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:39 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:08 pm Posts: 546 Location: Roseville
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plblark wrote: I'd heard that a lot of departments are also using Tasers ahead of direct contact / wrestling / hand to hand. The rationale is that it cuts down on officer injury and usually on suspect injury except in cases of underlying medical conditions or recreational pharmaceuticals.
In the Roseville Citizen's Police Academy, they stated this explicitly.
_________________ You can't save the Earth unless you're willing to make other people sacrifice. ~Dogbert~
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plblark
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:42 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:41 am Posts: 4468
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OT: Coming up again soon. I'm signed up.
_________________ Certified Carry Permit Instructor (MNTactics.com and ShootingSafely.com) Click here for current Carry Classes "There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men." - Edwin Burke
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Macx
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:54 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:37 pm Posts: 1757 Location: Whittier
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Quote: So then a patrol officer should take the shotgun from the rack when approaching a vehicle to write a traffic ticket, Sounds handy. What should he do with said shotgun while haveing to go hands on or while cuffing a subject if thats the ways things should turn?
Um, taser. The pistol is only a tool that allows you to fight your way back to your rifle . . . right? At traffic stop distances what does the taser give up to the pistol? Which is the better "one shot stopper"? Bear in mind that a taser hit on the leg (or other less than center mass target) will put you down right now where a bullet wound is a dice roll. Police officer's don't NEED pistols for close range self defense if they have a taser (yeah, ultimately I am saying carry one or the other but not both). As for cuffing subjects while bearing a longarm. . . . back up officers. Why do we invest tax dollars in these fancy radios if not to allow officers to call for back up when they need it to get the job done? Should a lone officer be attempting to cuff subjects that are resisting? Is that safer for the subjects or the officer than the officer waiting for back up? Lastly, there are some great slings on the market.
_________________ Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a
lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become
a law unto himself; it invites anarchy .” Olmstead v. U.S., 277 U.S. 438
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princewally
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:58 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:02 am Posts: 1684 Location: St Louis Park
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Quote: The roving mob expressed fury at police and frustration over society's racial injustice. Yet the demonstrators were often indiscriminate, frequently targeting the businesses and prized possessions of people of color.
They smashed a hair salon, a pharmacy and several restaurants. Police in riot gear tried to control the crowd, but some people retreated along 14th Street and bashed cars along the way.
The mob smashed the windows at Creative African Braids on 14th Street, and a woman walked out of the shop holding a baby in her arms.
"This is our business," shouted Leemu Topka, the black owner of the salon she started four years ago. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"
Wednesday night's vandalism victims had nothing to do with the shooting death by a BART police officer of Oscar Grant on New Year's Day - but that did little to sway the mob.
"I feel like the night is going great," said Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, one of the demonstrators. "I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back. It's for the murder of a black male."
Sykes, who is black, had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.
"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."
"I'm mad as hell, so I'm going to burn down my own neighborhood and torch my neighbor's car!"
Lovely.
_________________ Of the people, By the People, For the People. The government exists to serve us, not the reverse.
-------------------- Next MN carry permit class: TBD.
Permit to Carry MN --------------------
jason <at> metrodefense <dot> com
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DeanC
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:06 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am Posts: 5270 Location: Minneapolis
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Why in the world, though, in this instance in particular, would you need to taser a guy already in hadcuffs?
_________________ I am defending myself... in favor of that!
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tman065
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:37 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am Posts: 810 Location: Northern MN
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Macx wrote: Um, taser. The pistol is only a tool that allows you to fight your way back to your rifle . . . right? At traffic stop distances what does the taser give up to the pistol? Which is the better "one shot stopper"? Bear in mind that a taser hit on the leg (or other less than center mass target) will put you down right now where a bullet wound is a dice roll. Police officer's don't NEED pistols for close range self defense if they have a taser (yeah, ultimately I am saying carry one or the other but not both). As for cuffing subjects while bearing a longarm. . . . back up officers. Why do we invest tax dollars in these fancy radios if not to allow officers to call for back up when they need it to get the job done? Should a lone officer be attempting to cuff subjects that are resisting? Is that safer for the subjects or the officer than the officer waiting for back up? Lastly, there are some great slings on the market.
The short answer is that the taser is non-penetrating, and you need BOTH barbs to make contact. You're asking me to take a taser to a gunfight. Would you?
Should a lone officer attempt to cuff someone? I do it all the time. My nearest back-up can easily be 20 MILES away. Most of the time it's not a problem.
_________________ Proud, Service Oriented, Rural LEO, or "BADGED COWBOY" Certified MN Carry Permit Instructor
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Lenny7
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:08 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:09 am Posts: 1060 Location: Savage, MN
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We're straying from the topic a bit, but...
If a cop had a pistol, tazer, OC spray, and a baton and he had to subdue me and asked what tool I prefer that he use, I'd pick the tazer. Very effective and virtually instant recovery, unlike the other three options.
Not that I'd ever been in the situation where I had to be subdued. I have been voluntarily tazed twice however, as part of a citizen's police academy.
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Macx
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:26 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:37 pm Posts: 1757 Location: Whittier
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I am rather advocating that, LEOs bring long arms to gunfights. There is nothing a pistol does that a carbine doesn't do better except conceal & concealment really isn't an issue for a uniformed officer. If it is a gunfight, use the best tool . . . if it isn't a taser should be adequate. Quote: taser is non-penetrating, and you need BOTH barbs to make contact. the counter argument is that a pistol requires an accurate central nervous system hit to debilitate an aggressor and police have notoriously bad hit to miss ratios. Misses with a pistol can hurt innocents, misses with a taser .. . not so much. As a non-leo concealment is of interest to me, so I carry a pistol. There is also the economy of "something is better than nothing". If I knew I was going to a gunfight . . .. from the venerable internet nugget USMC Rules of GunfightingQuote: 6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
_________________ Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a
lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become
a law unto himself; it invites anarchy .” Olmstead v. U.S., 277 U.S. 438
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tman065
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:36 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am Posts: 810 Location: Northern MN
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Macx wrote: I am rather advocating that, LEOs bring long arms to gunfights. There is nothing a pistol does that a carbine doesn't do better except conceal & concealment really isn't an issue for a uniformed officer. If it is a gunfight, use the best tool . . . if it isn't a taser should be adequate.
I'd love to walk around w/my carbine. But don't you think the cops already suffer from a paramilitary mind set enough already?
If it's a gunfight, I'd prefer to use a rifle. But it shouldn't be all or nothing as you advocate. A pistol, openly carried for quick access is an acceptable alternative for me, enabling me to fight my way back to my rifle.
_________________ Proud, Service Oriented, Rural LEO, or "BADGED COWBOY" Certified MN Carry Permit Instructor
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joelr
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:51 pm |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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tman065 wrote: Macx wrote: I am rather advocating that, LEOs bring long arms to gunfights. There is nothing a pistol does that a carbine doesn't do better except conceal & concealment really isn't an issue for a uniformed officer. If it is a gunfight, use the best tool . . . if it isn't a taser should be adequate. I'd love to walk around w/my carbine. But don't you think the cops already suffer from a paramilitary mind set enough already? All in all, sure. That said, I'm not sure that taking to, say, a .30-30 Winchester would make a guy look all paramilitary, and there are (or, at least were) places in the world where the typical rifle that a cop would keep in his trunk was just that.
That said, there's some obvious retention issues if, instead of the whatever in the Level III holster, the guy's going to be routinely slinging a sling over his shoulder; maybe not the ideal routine carry weapon, all in all.
_________________ Just a guy.
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jrp267
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:06 pm |
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Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:39 pm Posts: 124
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tman065 wrote: I'd love to walk around w/my carbine. But don't you think the cops already suffer from a paramilitary mind set enough already?
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How does this differ than from how mpd is present outside the dome at certain events. Last year at a vikings game they had on flak jackets camo and ar 15 m16 variants.
_________________ But if “bear
arms” means, as the petitioners and the dissent think, the
Opinion of the Court
carrying of arms only for military purposes, one simply
cannot add “for the purpose of killing game.” The right “to
carry arms in the militia for the purpose of killing game”
is worthy of the mad hatter.
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joelr
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:15 pm |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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jrp267 wrote: tman065 wrote: I'd love to walk around w/my carbine. But don't you think the cops already suffer from a paramilitary mind set enough already?
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How does this differ than from how mpd is present outside the dome at certain events. Last year at a vikings game they had on flak jackets camo and ar 15 m16 variants. If his mission in life is to get us used to the presence of paramilitary forces, I'd be surprised; if that's not part of what makes the MPD's collective nipples collectively all hard, ditto.
_________________ Just a guy.
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tman065
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:23 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am Posts: 810 Location: Northern MN
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I really would love to be able to do my job without carrying any weapon other than my mind. (Think Columbo - or Andy Taylor even).
The reality is that bad guys sometimes carry guns that they may use on me without warning.
Sometimes I'm half-way into some shit when I realize that I should pr'y be ready defend myself.
I understand that some of you disagree, and some may disagree for the sake of argument. I'm cool with that.
If the BART officer heeds the advice that we all give here everyday, we may NEVER know why he shot the guy. That's sad. I'd like to know. It might help me sometime.
_________________ Proud, Service Oriented, Rural LEO, or "BADGED COWBOY" Certified MN Carry Permit Instructor
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RLS59
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Post subject: Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:51 am |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:24 pm Posts: 158 Location: Rochester
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tman065 wrote: I really would love to be able to do my job without carrying any weapon other than my mind. (Think Columbo - or Andy Taylor even).
Become a Federal Corrections Officer. You can work a unit with 200 + convicted felons and only have what’s between your ears for a weapon.
_________________ "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them." John Wayne (The Shootist)
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tman065
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Post subject: Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:18 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am Posts: 810 Location: Northern MN
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RLS59 wrote: tman065 wrote: I really would love to be able to do my job without carrying any weapon other than my mind. (Think Columbo - or Andy Taylor even). Become a Federal Corrections Officer. You can work a unit with 200 + convicted felons and only have what’s between your ears for a weapon.
I worked our jail for 3 years. No thanks.
_________________ Proud, Service Oriented, Rural LEO, or "BADGED COWBOY" Certified MN Carry Permit Instructor
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