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 Stalemate: FedEx squares off against gun advocates 
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 Post subject: Stalemate: FedEx squares off against gun advocates
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:07 am 
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Guess that I won't be sending anything via FedEx any more (no guns, no money).
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http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...s/?partner=RSS

Stalemate: FedEx squares off against gun advocates

By Richard Locker (Contact), Memphis Commercial Appeal
Wednesday, April 8, 2009

NASHVILLE -- The National Rifle Association and gun advocates found an adversary they couldn't roll over at the Tennessee legislature Wednesday -- FedEx Corp. and business groups.

Their setback came when a House subcommittee deferred until 2010 one of the gun lobby's major initiatives: a bill prohibiting any employer from banning employees from bringing guns onto employee parking lots.

The issue pitted gun rights against property rights, the gun lobby against the business lobby.

After hearing from both sides, the criminal procedures subcommittee sent House Bill 1395 into a study committee to examine and report its findings to the General Assembly next year.

The panel heard testimony from FedEx employee Sam Cooper in favor of the bill and FedEx lobbyist William Primeaux against it.

Cooper said he's worked at FedEx for 29 years and that he's been approached in his car by people near his work. Although he has never been subjected to violence, he said several co-workers have been held up at gunpoint in the vicinity.

"Some have said this legislation will usurp authority of the private property owner to maintain control over their property. ... It could be argued that their prohibition usurps my rights as to what I can carry in my vehicle when I'm not on their property because obviously I can't have it in my car before I arrive in the parking lot and after I leave.

"Much of our time is involved traveling to and from work. I've often felt quite vulnerable during this time, especially when I arrive in the area of Memphis International Airport," Cooper said.

Primeaux said FedEx Corp. opposes the bill "because we feel it's incumbent upon an employer to provide a safe and secure working environment not only for our employees but our customers and vendors who do business on our property."

He told the committee of the 1994 hijacking of a FedEx aircraft "by a disgruntled employee" while in flight in which three crew members "were savagely beaten ... and will never be able to fly again."

Primeaux also cited the February incident outside a Cordova restaurant in which a gun-carry licensee shot a FedEx employee to death in the parking lot.

NRA lobbyist Heidi Keesling and Tennessee Firearms Association executive director John Harris spoke for the bill. Keesling said 10 states have enacted similar laws.

"What we're seeing across the country is employers have chosen to fire their employees if they keep a firearm locked in their vehicle. That kind of goes against, you know, everything we kind of stand for in being able to protect yourself when you're commuters going to and from work," she said.

Kenny Crenshaw said he is both a carry-permit holder and small-business owner in Shelby County and said he favors the bill. "There seems to be some tension between the rights of a business owner to control his property -- and I think everybody appreciates that -- but there's also the right of a person to be able protect himself and I think the bill accommodates both of those."

Dan Haskell, chairman of the Tennessee Jobs Coalition, a lobbying umbrella group of business associations, and Bradley Jackson of the Tennessee Chamber of Commerce and Industry, testified against the bill.

"I can say that our membership as a whole is adamantly against this bill," Jackson said.

Victory for firearms

Alcohol no ban to guns in eateries

NASHVILLE -- The Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday approved a bill allowing people with handgun-carry permits to take their guns into restaurants that serve alcohol -- places where they are currently banned by law.

Details

The committee stripped out restrictions that remain in the House version of the bill, including one that bans guns in the restaurants between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. and one banning guns in restaurants that restrict admissions to minors. (Under state law, restaurants that allow smoking may prohibit minors from entering.)

The committee sent the bill to the Senate for a floor vote that hasn't been scheduled. But the House and Senate must reconcile difference between the two versions before it can become law.

-- Richard Locker

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:07 am 
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As unpopular as it may be around here, I think it is a violation of the property owner's right to require him to allow things to happen on his property that he doesn't agree with. I also think it is a violation of the employer's rights to set forth any contract with his employees that he sees fit.

I do not see any rights violation in a private entity requiring any policy be followed, weather it be no guns, no booze, no smoking, no nudity, no Irishmen, no girls allowed, etc.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:14 am 
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IIRC, This was one of Lillehaug's arguments to allow churches to exclude firearms any way they saw fit. He argued this at the debate against John Lott at the William Mitchell event several years ago.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:21 am 
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Quote:
The National Rifle Association and gun advocates found an adversary they couldn't roll over at the Tennessee legislature Wednesday


Roll over? WTF? I wonder what side of the debate this author is on?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:29 am 
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SultanOfBrunei wrote:
As unpopular as it may be around here, I think it is a violation of the property owner's right to require him to allow things to happen on his property that he doesn't agree with.

My employer has no property rights to my car, or what is in it.

He can tell me I may not park on his property. He may not tell me what I can keep in the car.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:40 am 
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SultanOfBrunei wrote:
As unpopular as it may be around here, I think it is a violation of the property owner's right to require him to allow things to happen on his property that he doesn't agree with. I also think it is a violation of the employer's rights to set forth any contract with his employees that he sees fit.

I do not see any rights violation in a private entity requiring any policy be followed, weather it be no guns, no booze, no smoking, no nudity, no Irishmen, no girls allowed, etc.



My experience when arguing this on other boards leads me to believe I'll be outnumbered here as well, but I guess I'll find out...

I believe this is improperly framed as a "gun rights vs property rights" argument. The correct way to think about this is strictly as a competing property rights argument. A private vehicle is personal property, and no one has any right (assuming "rights" are being properly defined...) to tell me what I can or cannot have in it. It is my private property. They of course have the right to prevent me from bringing my car onto their property, but their rights end at the exterior of my private property, i.e my car. Assuming I haven't turned my car itself into a bomb or some other type of weapon, I see no difference between banning the possession of some type of weapon inside my private property and banning empty Macdonald's sandwich wrappers. Therefore, the focus of "gun rights" advocates on the nature of the particular object for which they want to carve out an exception is flawed. Lovers of liberty everywhere should be focused on ensuring the sanctity of private property rights for everyone, car owners & property owners equally.

The only thing I'm willing to concede in this argument is that my vision of property rights is not commonly accepted as law in most states, so I am not trying to argue that my position is currently legal in TN. What I am arguing is that my position is the only morally defensible position.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:09 am 
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By way of an illustration, here's a posting at the Maplewood Fedex facility:

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:59 am 
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jdege wrote:
SultanOfBrunei wrote:
As unpopular as it may be around here, I think it is a violation of the property owner's right to require him to allow things to happen on his property that he doesn't agree with.

My employer has no property rights to my car, or what is in it.
He can tell me I may not park on his property. He may not tell me what I can keep in the car.

I think you would agree that your pant's pockets are also your private property. Would you suggest that your employer has no rights to tell you what you may not have in your pockets while you are at work for him?

When it turns to an employer/employee relationship I think that the employer is well within his rights to define your job to include any such meanial requirements as he sees fit. It is your right to accept or not accept compensation to follow his requirements.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:12 am 
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Fed Ex "private property" is operated as a public accomodation. That's Fed Ex's choice. Having made that choice, they can't discriminate.

Fed Ex and all businesses get have the protection of all the laws and public safety services. It is reasonable to require them to operate their public accomodations consistantly with our public policies and laws.

What value to society is there to hire police to enforce a discriminatory policy?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:49 am 
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SultanOfBrunei wrote:
I think you would agree that your pant's pockets are also your private property. Would you suggest that your employer has no rights to tell you what you may not have in your pockets while you are at work for him?

I can think of only a couple of situations in which what I have in my pockets has any relevance to my employment.

1. If I am working in a cleanroom, surgical theater, forensics lab or other environment in which the nature of the work requires control over what is brought into the room.

2. If the nature of the employment is such that it requires me to carry some specific object. That is, an employer has the right to require me to carry a pager, a cell phone, a tool kit, a gun, a business card, or whatever other tool is necessary to to the work.

Outside of those specific scenarios, no, it isn't any of my employer's business what I have in my pockets.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:16 pm 
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SultanOfBrunei wrote:
I think you would agree that your pant's pockets are also your private property. Would you suggest that your employer has no rights to tell you what you may not have in your pockets while you are at work for him?

I've had a conversation very similar to this with a co-worker who had a hissy fit over a sweatshirt I'd hung on the coat-rack one day.

What I do outside of the scope of my job, on my time is MY business; as long as by the time I'm clocked in I'm in compliance with policy, what I wear, what I say, and what I do are completely up to me.

Quote:
When it turns to an employer/employee relationship I think that the employer is well within his rights to define your job to include any such meanial requirements as he sees fit. It is your right to accept or not accept compensation to follow his requirements.


The employer can and will define what I do for precisely forty (that's FOUR ZERO) hours a week. The minute I'm off the clock, boss-man and his uppers have precisely ZERO say over my (otherwise legal) conduct.

They're not paying me for my drive home, they're not paying me to be a sitting duck at the gas-pump at 11:45 at night on my way in to work. They're not compensating me for anything but that 40 hours. And they're not providing me with security.

Nor are they paying my car payments for me or filling my gas tank. They're not paying me for mileage, or to get my tabs renewed.

That vehicle and its (otherwise legal) contents are none of their business whatsoever. None.

I'm working to live, not living to work. In fact, my phone doesn't get answered at any time I'm off the clock if it's someone from my job calling. There's nothing so important that they NEED to speak to me right now, and there's nothing so important that I need to be there on my off time, despite what the writers of the corporate policy think.

In a nutshell; my time, my vehicle, my life "off the clock" is MINE, no one elses to decide what (otherwise legal) things I do with it.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:58 pm 
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:lol:
This one really made me laugh...!
The NRA summed up in 6 words by their own lobbyist:
Quote:
everything we kind of stand for



GOA all the way! 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:03 pm 
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SultanOfBrunei wrote:
jdege wrote:
SultanOfBrunei wrote:
As unpopular as it may be around here, I think it is a violation of the property owner's right to require him to allow things to happen on his property that he doesn't agree with.

My employer has no property rights to my car, or what is in it.
He can tell me I may not park on his property. He may not tell me what I can keep in the car.

I think you would agree that your pant's pockets are also your private property. Would you suggest that your employer has no rights to tell you what you may not have in your pockets while you are at work for him?

When it turns to an employer/employee relationship I think that the employer is well within his rights to define your job to include any such meanial requirements as he sees fit. It is your right to accept or not accept compensation to follow his requirements.


The best way to make the distinction is to compare your car to your home. I argue that there is no relevant distinction between the two. The house itself is essentially a 'container' within which you keep your property, as is your car. Obviously, the car is a movable 'container', and as I mentioned above, if any private entity wishes to keep you from parking or driving your car on their property, so be it. But no one has the right to tell you that some item of your private property, which is legally owned and possessed, may not be within that 'container'. Again, preventing you from bringing your car onto their property, simply because they don't want your car there - A-OK. Having any say at all regarding what is actually in your private property - not OK.

Your statement that the contents of your pockets being your private property is not analogous to the contents of your home or your car. Your home and your car are clearly separate and distinct from yourself and are recognized as such. You can enter & exit them, secure / lock them, and leave them for extended periods of time. They have identifying markers - VIN numbers, license plates, street address, county-assigned lot numbers, etc. Your pants / shorts / shirts / jackets / etc. do not, and as such cannot be treated in the same way.

Basically, anything you have in your pockets which you own most definitely is your private property. But because it is "on your person", meaning easily and readily accessible to you, it is private property which may be used - or misused - by you at a moment's notice, is therefore of concern to the property owner, and is treated differently than private property that may be stowed / locked / secured in either your vehicle or your home.

Does this make sense? I'm not asking if you agree or not, just whether or not you are following my argument. If yes, then we can argue about which of us is correct. If not, then I can try to restate my argument in a way that is more understandable...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:55 pm 
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JGalt wrote:
But because it is "on your person", meaning easily and readily accessible to you, it is private property which may be used - or misused - by you at a moment's notice, is therefore of concern to the property owner

No, it's not.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:17 pm 
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jdege wrote:
JGalt wrote:
But because it is "on your person", meaning easily and readily accessible to you, it is private property which may be used - or misused - by you at a moment's notice, is therefore of concern to the property owner

No, it's not.


Well, I agree with you, but it isn't an argument that is going to be won...

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